Should we paper train?

[Oscar's Mom]

I was thinking, those of us that are having trouble getting our kids to go outside, should we just try to paper train??

[dutchman]

I haven't tried to paper train either of my boys yet but since Tanner seems to mind the bad weather I've considered getting one of the new doggie litter boxes that Purina(?) is marketing.

Tom

[Mark]

When we first brought Duck Butter home it was the beginning of a bad winter . . . so we paper trained her. After the initial thaw we started reducing the size of papers while taking her out more than just frequently. Each successful outing was met with a whole lot of praise! Meanwhile the paper disappeared . . . we had a few accidents, but had chosen a lino floor for the papers so when she did go inside it was on an easily cleaned floor. Masse & Top Spin learned to go outside from the get go. Masse had some accidents at first, but there have been none for a long time. Top Spin has never had an accident. "Gooood boy!" http://dachsie.org/ubb/smilies/biggrin.gif

If it haden't have been such a bad winter we never would have paper trained DB, but as it turned out she adapted quickly when it was time to stop.

Should you paper train? - IMHO, only if you have to . . .

Mark

PS - I hated having to deal with the papers!

[Oscar's Mom]

I actually have purchased that Purina litter box. Oscar wouldn't stop eating the litter and bringing it all over the house, so I put it away. I think I'll try to use it again with just newspaper. I'm not really sure how to go about getting him to use it.
I wrote Purina about eating the litter and they said it was not harmful, but I have to wonder about that.

[Frzframe]

We bought one of those for our other dog Emily and she looked at it "like what the heck am I supposed to do with that thing?" So when I got Mitzi we thought we'd try her on or should I say in it. I didn't use the litter but put in a training potty liner but guess what poor thing was to short to get in it in a hurry. I decided that since Mitiz was having trouble with adjusting to her diet that she had to have something down. She is doing pretty good. I thought she would be alright in my room because she was doing so good on the papers going without me even knowing - but she rebeled and went other then where she was supposed to go. I'm thinking she was getting back at me for leaving her alone. She hates to be alone.
~Shonda

[Mrs.F]

I think paper training is great if you are willing to deal with having papers down all the time. It's been great for us. Penny was paper trained from the beginning because it was below 0 every day for the first few weeks after we brought her home. (January in Maine!) It just wasn't fair to expect her to learn to go outside in such unpleasant weather. I have an out of the way corner on linoleum in the kitchen that's perfect for the paper and she caught on quite quickly. (I put plastic under the newspaper to keep the floor dry and clean.) She's almost 2 now and I only put paper down if the weather is really awful. When she has the occasional "accident" in the house it's ALWAYS where the paper goes - even if there's no paper there! It's still no fun cleaning up after her, but it's so much better than cleaning up after Maggie's accidents! Maggie was 7 months old when we got her and never really took to paper training. If she has an "accident" inside it's liable to be ANYWHERE in the house. We have to follow our noses and/or watch our step to find it!

[Oscar's Mom]

Frzframe - please don't think Mitzi is trying to get back at you for being left alone. I have read that dogs really don't do that kind of thing. That if there are accidents, they are accidents or she really doesn't understand what you want from her.

This potty training has turned out to be much more difficult then expected. I do give lots of praise when Oscar goes outside. I stopped giving treats because he was fake peeing for them.

[Krista]

Well, I hate to disagree, but you cannot have things both ways....

Now if dogs don't have the mental capability to get revenge by having an accident, then they also would not have the capability to "fake" peeing for a treat.

So its either like this, They do get revenge and fake pee for treats, or they don't do either.

I'm not sure which I think is the right answer...

When dogs that have not had accidents in forever, have one when you're home....well it seems feasible they could be upset with you.

But it also seems feasible to me that dogs really think they are peeing, but their bladder is just empty. Haven't you seen males walk around their block marking trees and such? By the time they get around the block, nothing is coming out - but its obvious that they don't know that. If this is true, then the dog might feel cheated since they "peed" but got no treat - Just a thought.

It could go either way....but I don't think it can be both. Thats just my opinion.

What do you all think the answer is??

[Oscar's Mom]

As far as the fake pees go, I think you could be right that they think they are peeing but have nothing left. Faking a pee for a treat is totally different from having an accident. If he's supposed to get a treat for peeing and he makes the motions, regardless of if anything comes out, then they think they are pleasing you, and your right probably should get a treat anyway. If he has an accident, I'm sure no dog gets praised for that, so I think it is an accident. Unless you catch them in the act, they really don't know they are doing a bad thing. Even those dogs that probably should know better maybe just don't want to go outside. I really don't belive that dogs pee in the house out of spite, just to get back you. Thats just how I feel and could be wrong. I'd like to hear others thoughts on the too.

[Mark]

Hmmm, here's a thought . . . Oscar didn't get it, but he did get trained. Maybe he thought the squatting (or lifting his leg) produced the reward so he thinks, "OK just do that & I get a treat". I've seen where dogs that "have accidents" in the house and their owner rushes them outside . . . the wheels start turning . . . the dog thinks, "let me get this straight . . . I pee in the house if I wanna go out". And they just keep having the "accidents".

Just a thought

??? Mark ???

[Frzframe]

I have no idea I just know she was doing great then not so good. But we are still working on it. I want her to go outside but it isn't possible for me to be right with her everytime she has to go. When I see that she is sniffing for a place I take her out and she goes. Good dog! At night she sleeps on my bed and wakes me up if she has to go. Out side we go, Good Mitzi! But the hard part is I work and she goes in a crate - now I admitt it's to big. I had her in a small one but she went in it - let me tell you YUCK! So now I keep her in a larger one so we don't have that problem. And I don't have to give her a bath. I go home for lunch but it really isn't enough time for her to do her business. I'm hoping it she will do better in a few weeks when she is alittle older. What do you think? Should I give her more time or put her back into her smaller cage?
~Shonda

[Mark]

Hi Shonda,

I think most of us agree that the crate should be "just" big enough for them to lay in comfortably. No roaming room at all.

As far as the potty training goes some take longer than others to "get it", even months. I guess other than the usual words the first one ours learned was "outside" = potty. Once outside the word became "potty". "Bye-bye" is always a walk or car ride. They all picked it up fairly quick. If they looked like something was amiss (you know that strained look) our first question was, "do you need to go outside?" and we led (not carried) them out We took them out on a timed basis too, but always used the "outside" word while still inside and the "potty" word once outside and consistantly praised them when they did right. They soon learned that if they did have to go and we said "outside" to head for the door and eventually just headed to the door on their own. If nothing else we were consistant. Both the Dachsies spent a few years home alone between 7:30 and 5:30 and unless there was a medical reason there were not very many accidents. If you're consistant in your approach they will learn, but it takes patience.

Certainly there are many ways to teach potty training and I am positively not an expert, but this worked pretty well for us.

Take care & good luck,

Mark

[Oscar's Mom]

Shonda - Mitzi is about 2 months old? Our vet said rule of thumb is for how many months old the pup is, is how long they can hold it. So Mitzi should be able hold it about 2 hours but she is still very young without much control. A pup should not be in a crate for more then 4 hours at a time, otherwise she will have accidents in it. I'm certainly no expert either, but I've read alot about this issue. I'm sure she will get better with some time. Oscar has been difficult to train and still will not ask to go out, he's 18 months. Be sure to clean up the accidents with something like Natures Miracle. Hang in there!

[Penny's Aunt]

I don't really believe that dogs try to get back at their owners for doing certain things. I DO believe that sometimes the wires in their little brains get crossed sometimes, & they connect certain behaviors with certain results, but not the ones you intended.

For instance: pup gets praise/treat for peeing outside in the grass. Pup associates praise/treat with PEEING, but not necessarily with being outdoors in the grass at the time. So doesn't really understand when you yell at him for peeing in the bedroom or living room. This is probably a combination of a lack of communication and overly-high expectations, both of which are fairly normal (IMHO).

One thing you always have to keep in mind: it is NATURAL INSTINCT for a dog to just stop & pee or poop wherever he happens to be. It is TRAINING that gets him to do it where YOU want him to do it, it is NOT a natural thing to have to wait for a special time or place. We tend to forget that.

I have never really liked paper training, mainly because once the dog knows the rules, you change the rules & want him to do his business outdoors. BUT I have never lived in a place with severe winters. If you want to paper-train, wipe up some accidents with a paper towel & deposit the soil paper towel on the paper (or in the litterbox), so he gets the (vague) idea that that is the right place.

One thing about the "fake" peeing: does the dog that does it have accidents indoors fairly soon afterward? If not, they're probably not fake, he's just empty & trying to please you. But if he pees indoors quite soon, I don't know. I have never heard of fake peeing when they have urine in their bladder.

Mostly, I think when a mostly-housebroken dog pees indoors, he either wasn't REALLY housebroken yet but he's improving so much that you thought he was, or there was a relapse, which trainers say is very common, for any number of reasons. Just pay more attention, back up to his last level of success, watch him, praise him, & consider keeping him confined for a while to PREVENT accidents -- as a punishment, I don't think it works very well.

Also in my opinion: if a dog is sick, on med that affects bladder or bowels, or has diarrhea, all rules & expectations are off. There should be no reprimands for these kinds of accidents when it's not a behavioral problem, but a physical one. If you need a reminder of the time, set the kitchen timer (bring it with you).

My pup is now 6 months old. It's been about 3 months since she had any kind of accident, but I STILL take her out frequently, I STILL watch for wandering behavior, & I STILL praise her when I see her doing it. (After all, we all like to be told we're doing a good job, even when we've been doing it for quite a while!)



<FONT COLOR="#00FFFF" SIZE="1" FACE="Verdana, Arial">This message has been edited by Penny's Aunt on October 06, 2000 at 01:18 PM</font>

[Oscar's Mom]

Penny's Aunt - I have the fake pee-er. I think your right that he is just trying to please me.

[twix0699]

Sorry, but I have to disagree with most of you on the peeing for spite thing. The doxie I had before Twix never ever had accidents in the house (oh, wouldn't that be nice now). One of my roommates decided to get a puppy and one day as I was making my bed, he stood in the hallway staring me down and peeing at the same time. I honestly believe he did that because he was mad. Also, if a dog is well trained, how else do they have to tell you that you have ****** them off? (no pun intended)
I am still having problems with Twix. She is the first dog I have gotten as a pup and therefore the first one I have had to train. Mostly, I feel that if she is having accidents it is not her fault but mine. It is something I am doing that hasn't taught her that outside is the only place to do that. I always crate Twix when I am not home and she never goes in her crate, even if I leave her in there for 8+ hours.

Shonda, if you can put up with it, keeping her in the smaller crate works better. Twix started holding it all day at probably 3 to 4 months and I was told she wouldn't be able to do that til she was at least 7 months old. I didn't always give Twix a full bath or I would have bathed her everyday in the beginning. I just washed her feet off lots of days or used a washcloth on her. She gets soooo cold after a bath.

I have loved reading about all this since I still have some problems with Twix. Thanks for all the info.

Teresa and Twix

[Penny's Aunt]

Let me back up just a little. I still think "spite" is a strong word, & not one that is necessarily in a dog's "vocabulary". But I DO suspect that a dog will do a bad thing to get attention. Any attention is better than no attention, & spanking or yelling is attention. It's not prime, but it's better than being ignored.

Several times I have seen people cooing over a new puppy, & noticed the older dog watching from across the room. Can a dog feel jealousy? Maybe not exactly, but something that resembles it? One dog was a nice old dog named Willy. He stood in the doorway & watched, then gave a sigh, & turned & went under the dining room table. He didn't close his eyes, he just watched the room with the puppy in it. Maybe it was just my imagination, but he seemed sad, like he felt dispossed. Toppled by a little kid that still peed on himself.

I went in & petted him & told him he was fine dog, & he seemed to perk up. Maybe he just didn't want to be forgotten?

[LisaH]

Regarding the "fake pee" question:
As the owner of a fake pee-er, I think she does it not because she's so darned smart, but because she's pressing the envelope. It would be so much easier if she got a treat not just for peeing, but for squatting down. She's trying to figure out what the parameters of the game are, so she can maximize her treat reward.

[Frzframe]

Just thought you would like an update on Mitzi - she is doing great. She is eating, not dry food but blended dry food - I'm faking her out. Since she is over her tummy problems she will be moved back into her smaller crate. She'll hate it but it wont be to bad. She is doing great with outside and potty. I wish I could be home with her during the day but at least I get to go home to her during my lunch. She is a holy terror. I've been calling her DT - DACHSHUND TERROR. She is now back to sleeping on my neck or head. She loves it but it is uncomfortable for me so I move her when she is out cold. She is so cute I love her to pieces and try not to let her get buy with anything she isn't supposed to. <IMG SRC="http://dachsie.org/ubb/cwmsmilies/cwm13.gif" border=0> ! ~Shonda and Mitzi Moo (don't know why but that is what I call my four legged baby.

[tyanne]

Sooooo....what should I do when I catch Gracie "in the act"(going inside)?...She is really doing good doing her business outside but she will go outside and do "both businesses" and come right back in and mess again.....what gives ..I have been giving her plenty of "after time" (after she finishes outside)and lots and lots of praise when she does it outside,,,and maybe it is getting a little better...ANY IDEAS??? Also, she is only 9 weeks old( which may be an explination for the above problem in part)...what type of treats are good for pups this age? I dont want to give her something to mess her system up... <IMG SRC="http://dachsie.org/ubb/cwmsmilies/cwm25.gif" border=0> <IMG SRC="http://dachsie.org/ubb/cwmsmilies/cwm3.gif" border=0>

[LisaH]

Tyanne:

Your pup's age is the ENTIRE explanation for why she sometimes makes mistakes! She's still just an infant. It's your job to learn to recognize when she needs to go and to get her outside before she does it. If you actually catch her in the act, scoop her up, take her outside, and praise her for finishing out there. If it's afterward, forget about any sort of correction--just clean it up without her seeing you (and use a product like Nature's Miracle to remove the smell so she won't be drawn to the same spot again).

As far as treats are concerned, it seems to me you can try just about anything that she likes. If it doesn't agree with her, try something else. We got a free sample of Purina Puppy Chow when Annie was a pup, and she LOVED it, but I didn't want to feed her that as her regular kibble (she eats Nutro). So we used the Purina as treats. (We called it "McDonald's" <IMG SRC="http://dachsie.org/ubb/cwmsmilies/cwm35.gif" border=0> .) Just reward her with a tiny treat and lots of praise every time she goes. Annie really started making progress after we started rewarding with treats, but she wasn't 100% for many months. Just do YOUR work and eventually you'll have a housetrained dog. Good luck!

[Penny's Aunt]

When you see her circling, or starting to squat, or starting to pee, etc, make a loud noise: slapping a table or door with your hand is good, one loud WHACK! It should startle her & tighten up ALL her sphincter muscles for a minute. Then scoop her up & take her out.

I agree that her tender age is the problem. It is NORMAL for all dogs to just squat when they feel like it. WE have to TRAIN them to get in the habit of just doing it outdoors. This training is NOT normal behavior to the dog, so you will have to make allowances. It just isn't a reasonable expectation to think a very young pup will be instantly housebroken. Should it ever happen, you can consider it an Act of God, a genuine MIRACLE. For the rest, we get a roll of the good, highly-absorbant paper towels, a jug of odor neutralizer, & some old towels. This is just part of having a puppy.

It's a near-miracle if a 9-wk pup is even getting the IDEA of what you want!

[Frzframe]

Penny's Aunt that is all good and well if a loud noise works! and if you can catch the darn darling dog. I found with Mitzi that loud noises do not do a thing and if I see she is sniffing and go to pick her up she runs for the hills and fast as those four short little legs can carry her. If she has already started and I scoop her up to take her out then she won't go no matter if I stay out with her for an hour. I've trained myself when she needs to go out. It has worked pretty well and she is getting the idea finally. But I'm afraid my little girl is going to take her own sweet time when it comes to having her tell me when she needs to go! At least I'm getting exercise chasing her all around the house http://dachsie.org/ubb/smilies/smile.gif
~Shonda and a very fast little Mitzi

<FONT COLOR="#00FFFF" SIZE="1" FACE="Verdana, Arial">This message has been edited by Frzframe on October 15, 2000 at 09:34 PM</font>

[Oscar's Mom]

Frzframe - some dogs never really let you know they have to go out. Oscar is a over a year and still does not go to the door, I just have to try to keep a schedule.
The really hard part is that you have to watch her all the time to catch her in the act and then run her outside.

[Penny's Aunt]

Yes, indeed, the catching them in the act is the hard part! Usually, you just find a wet spot.

I wouldn't get into the habit of chasing her. That is a really fun game & can go on forever, unless you are faster than she is, & that's very unlikely.

Just taking her out every hour or so usually ends up being the best way to circumvent the puddles.

"...my little girl is going to take her own sweet time..." REALLY? A dachshund? My, my, how could that be?

[Frzframe]

A game of me chasing her? You bet she had a blast (I've only done it once and she won! And then I only did it because we were visiting my brother). Everyone thought it was sooooo funny including Mitzi except me of course. She would run ahead start to squat and I was running after her telling her no when I got to her she would take off again. It is funny now but man was I mad cause I had just had her outside. But she sure was cute running as fast as she could.
And bye the way are you trying to tell me something in that last statement, Penny's Aunt? TeeHee <IMG SRC="http://dachsie.org/ubb/cwmsmilies/cwm41.gif" border=0>
~Shonda

[Krista]

It took me 2 months to get Rudy trained, and now he will NOT go in the house period, he will hold it forever in bad weather too, but in an emergency in very bad weather he will go on our covered patio.

Roscoe had a few accidents the first two weeks and he had about 1 accident a week the next 4 weeks. Now he has been accident free for nearly three weeks now. But he is an older puppy, I got him at 16 weeks, when he could hold it 4 hours in a crate and hold it all night long. Now at 6 mos, I don't watch him -I just make sure he goes out every few hours unless he's asleep.

So I guess for me, with older puppies it took me two months to trust them.

You are doing the right thing by keeping a schedule. Just take her out every hour or two that you are home and wait until she does go. If she does praise praise praise treat treat treat and reward with some free play time inside. If she does not go, put her in her crate and try again in a half hour or so. She'll get the idea, that if she wants to roam in the house, she has to make a potty outside.

Shes just so very young, she'll need time.

[wildpsychochick]

we tried the paper thing with Jazzy, it didn't work, and she had previously lived outside, so she was used to just going when and where she pleased. we use a crate and it works, most of the time. the vet suggested we put her in at nite and when we were not home, he also suggested that if we were not giving her all of our attention, either holding, playing, or taking outside that she should be in the crate. well i had trouble with that, and sure enough, if all the attention wasn't focused on her, she would run into my kids room and do her thing, at first i thought it was spite or jealousy, now i just think we weren't tuned into what she was doing. she still has accidents, usually right next to the back door, she does let us know when she need to go out...does the little circle thing, nips at her leash hanging by the door or just gives me that "look". as long as we are in sync things go smoothly, and when there is an accident, the fault usually lies with the humans who live in Jazzy's house!!!!!!!

[Penny's Aunt]

That's when you get the rolled-up newspaper & whack yourself on the head three times while saying "I should have been watching that puppy! I should have been watching that puppy..." (Hooman Beans are hard to train, you know!)

<FONT COLOR="#00FFFF" SIZE="1" FACE="Verdana, Arial">This message has been edited by Penny's Aunt on October 18, 2000 at 01:40 PM</font>