Strange?

[adelgoh]

Hi Everyone,

Tobey's the new addition to the family - it's been a hectic one week with this three-month-old and our other 'kid' doxie Nellie, but we're loving every minute of it!

When I first saw Tobey, I was struck by his interesting coloring. He's golden all over (just like a golden retriever), and he has grey-green / pale-green eyes, with a salmon-colored nose. Am just wondering if he falls into any classification... Class of his own? :)

Take a look at the boy (sorry, the quality of the photos are not that good):
http://mediaservice.photoisland.com/auction/Jun/20046213897991852667531.jpg
http://mediaservice.photoisland.com/auction/Jun/20046216750224698024754.jpg

What do you think? :confused:

Cheers!
Adeline.

[Mack]

I believe the proper registration of Tobey would be red, which covers every shade of red in dachshunds. Reds should have black noses/nails and brown eyes, but occasionally a dilute gene will cause liver-colored nose and nails and greenish/hazel eyes -- which appears to be your Tobey.
He sure is handsome.

[Heidismom]

Probably Carol or Cindy or some of the other breeders could help you classify him. My uneducated guess would be that he is a red with eye and nose color that do not meet the standard for a red dachshund. But no matter what, he is definitely a cutie pie! Julia B.

[adelgoh]

He is a darling! I read that chocolate doxies do have pale green eyes and liver noses, while cream & red ones have standard black eyes and noses. Also that the pale green eyes are a result of two recessive genes. Hmmm... that makes him a 'crossover' classification all three ways! :)

Anyway, I think he's quite unique... despite his non-conforming looks :flower:

[Me&DappledDuo]

OK- he's a dilute red. Sometimes they're called "Chocolate Reds"- because the reason that they have the liver nose is that they inherited two chocolate genes (bb) instead of black&tan genes (BB). That means both parents were carriers for chocolate- or one was chocolate, and one was a red. If a puppy has one of each (Bb), they carry for chocolate recessively. Having bb means that a puppy can't make black at all- so their nails, nose, eye rims and gums will never have any black on them. Of course, because chocolates have "bb" too, neither can they.

But I'm sorry- a responsible breeder does NOT breed for dilute reds. They aren't in the AKC standard. Chocolates should really only be bred to other chocolates, unless their genes are really well researched. :(

This doesn't mean that there's anything wrong with your puppy, healthwise- though a light nose can get sunburned easier, and light eyes hurt in direct sunlight. And it's sadly not uncommon anymore- as more and more irresponsible people get into breeding, and they favor "colors" to sell for more $$$ to naive people. Responsible breeders breed for ONE thing first- to better the breed. There's just not much reason to breed a chocolate to anything but.

Anyway... he's adorable, of course! And will be a wonderful pet! :D

PS- I forgot that you aren't an American! :D
So you don't need AKC standards. But I know of NO standards that allow for dilute reds. :)

[adelgoh]

Ah, I see. :)

In any case, it wasn't for the breed standard that I bought Tobey. It was also not on the top of my mind when I got Nellie (who isn't too conventional herself). Irresponsible breeders exist, but at the same time, I wonder about the number of 'non-standard' dogs that are unwanted/neglected as a result. Or on the flip side, falsely appreciated for their 'unusual' and 'unconventional' looks. I recognize the importance of keeping to standards in breeding, but I feel less strongly about conventions when it comes to adding a new member to my family. :)

I wonder if Nellie sees Tobey as a 'dilute red' ;)

Adeline.

[Patt]

I have no idea on the color class, just wanted to say Tobey is a little doll and glad you joined our group.;)

[PennyLover]

I'm with Patt-I have nothing to add to this discussion except that he is adorable!! :)

[Dachshundrsq]

BB is not dilution and it is not Blk/Tan. Blk/Tan is actually "atat". The BB series is the Chocolate series and a series all by itself. The dilution series is a series all by itself.
The base colors in Dachshunds are:
at...Blk/Tan
ay...Red
aw..'Wild" Wolf Like, Salt and Pepper, Wild Boar
There are many series of genes that change the color of the "Base"
BB series is the Brown series or Chocolate.
CC series is where we will find the Creams with the Cch gene which is the Chinchilla gene.
DD series is the Dilution series, it only effects dogs with Black or Chocolate pigment, It will change a Black/Tan dog to a Blue/Tan, it will change a Chocolate/Tan dog to an Isabela/Tan.
EE series is the Recessive "e" gene which will keep any black from being expressed on the dog.
GG series will cause dogs to have premature graying.
MM series, which is Merle or Dapple
R series which may or may not be a seperate series but it is for Roaning.
SS series which is the spotting series which is responsible for Irish Spotting, Piebald and Extreme Whites.
There are modifiers that are plus and minus in relation to expression of white.
Chocolate can be carried recessively for 20 generations and never be seen if it never meets up with another chocolate gene. In your dogs case, it could be that the parents both unknowingly carried for chocolate and the two genes met up in your dog. As fate would have it, the dog also got an "ay" gene which is dominant to "at" which caused it's base color to be red. This dog would properly be called a "Liver Nosed Red" He carries 2 chocolate genes and at least one red gene.
One should be REAL careful when they speak of responsible breeding practices since recessive genes can bite even the most responsible breeders in the butt...JMHO

[adelgoh]

Thanks for that v interesting 'doxology' lesson. It's incredible the number of permutations that can exist in this breed. :eek:

It would have been great if I could have met Tobey's parents, but unfortunately, there are no established/trusted breeders in Singapore. So, most of our doxies are imported from Australia, and we don't get to learn about their parentage unless we're game for some detective work. We are also not entirely sure about the pedigree of what we're getting. In any case, there is a very small but loyal group of people in my country who are crazy about these dogs, and we love each one that we can get here.

Thanks again for all your comments. :flower:

One last question: Is it possible for Tobey to have a black and tan brother? Cos another member of this BBS, Toety, reckons his Blk/Tan LH mini may be from the same litter as mine.

Cheerz. :circle:

[Dachshundrsq]

VERY Possible!
My sister got a Liver Nosed Red Long boy out of one of my litters. Both parents were smooths. The Sire was Blk/Tan, The Dam a Homozygous Red, which I didn't know until I did this breeding. I also didn't know that both mom and dad carried Chocolate and LH. I knew dad might carry piebald, but I didn't find that out until Charlie produced a Red Piebald female. BTW, I know that Charlie carries Blk/Tan since his dad was Blk/tan (a Blk/Tan is Homozygous for Blk/Tan and therefore they can only throw Blk/Tan) So I bred him to a Blk/Tan and I got 4 reds. I bred him to a red that carries Blk/Tan and I got 5 reds. I bred him to a Red that carries Blk/Tan and I got 3 reds and 3 blk/tans. So Charlie produces LOTS of reds!!

[adelgoh]

WOW. That's really cool. :dizzy:

Smooth, LH, Blk/Tan, Red, Piebald etc. - The combinations are amazing. Charlie must have a thing for red-haired beauties ;)

Thanks!!
:circle:

[Mack]

Another way to tell the difference between a dilute red (that has green eyes and liver nose) and a chocolate (with green eyes and liver nose) is that chocolates must have the tan points.

Reds do not have the tan points. Chocolate and tans must have the tans points over the eyes, around the butt, on the feet, etc. -- just like black and tans.

[quavec]

Was absolutely lost in this thread......:eek: felt like I was back in A&P class! All of those recessive/domininant gene things....punet squares right? Anway, nothing to add but what a sweetheart! He does look like a mini retriever!;)

[Kim H.]

Extremely lost, but fascinated!! Dachshund genetics are pretty complex. Now if someday, they figure out how to breed for injury-proof backs, we'll be set!
Tobey is a darling, whatever color he is.:)

[doxunzX3]

My niece would fall in love with him fast. She loves her Golden Copper. But he is such a big moose (IMO) they just love him to death.
It sure does get confusing when you get into all the genetics stuff. All I know is I love those long little doggies. And I am glad that there are responsible breeders out there.

[Rosalyn]

Wow, really lost! Thanks for all the genetics! But, is Dudley red or chocolate? He is red in the sun, and chocolate in side. He has a black nose and black toe nails. And he has beautiful brown eyes. And oh yeah he is a smoothly, mini. And he might be considered to have tan points over eyes and little butt and feet. Anyway he is not going back to breeder, he is here to STAY! But, he is not up to blue ribbons any way. His nose is SOOOOO pointy. Because he looks like his real mommy, and her name is: Frankie Lee. What a name. Dudley is still: F. Dudley Hershey Kiss.

Chocolate kisses for me!!!!!!!!!!!!

P.S. My daughter told me a couple weeks ago her friend got a blue dachshund, so what is that?

[Mel n Gooey]

If he has a black nose and toenails, he's a red. Chocolates are caused by a gene that modifies black pigment to brown (chocolate, liver, depending on your breed), all over the body. So, with that, a chocolate will not have any black on their coat.

Blue is the dilute form of black, when a genetically black dog also gets two copies of the dilute gene (each parent must carry for it), they will be blue. Dilutes can have skin/hair problems from the reduced amount of pigment in their coats, one such problem being CDA, or color dilute alopecia, which causes thin, brittle coats (sometimes and affected dog will be entirely bald).

[Lambdog]

Cutey-pie! That's what he is!
Also, I am fascinated with genetics. Thanks, dachshundrsq, good post.

Karen

[schroeders mom]

Very interesting...I think Schroeder might be a Liver Nosed Red. He is a red smooth, with a red nose, red nails and light brown eyes. I don't know what his parents were, Schroeder will be 7 come November. He has a real pretty red coat (when he's not rolling in something), I knew hew was a little different.
Can you let me know what you think?

Thanks!

[Frzframe]

his coloring is all I know is he's a dachshund and he's soooooo cute! :D

[FOREVER A DAXIE]

What a complete sweetie Tobey is!

I too am exhausted (albeit happily) when reading all the different gene pool stuff! Whew. Who keeps all that in their heads....

[My3Dachsies]

Tobey is toooo cute! :D

[Toety]

the same place Adeline and I got our dachshunds told me they have imported 4 dacshunds from the same litter. As they were seperated in 2 shops, I saw Tobey and a girl... in the 1st shop I went to and was intrigued when I was told that the other shop had the 2 other littermates and 1 of them was a black/tan... I always wanted a dark colored dog... so... off I went to see the black/tan pup, I bought him, his name is Peter Pan... but honestly, he is dark chocolate... these are his recent pictures:


http://bonekaku.homestead.com/15July2004_Peter012.jpg

http://bonekaku.homestead.com/15July2004_Peter017.jpg


Can you tell he is dark chocolate? Peter has a white patch near his collar bone and bits of golden strands on his chest.. hehehe...

he is my BABYYYYYYYYY ~ :bounce:


this is Toety from :sunny: Singapore

[blazeman]

Peter is a handsome boy! You should post this in a new thread!!

[Dachshundrsq]

BLACK/TAN...Nothing Chocolate or even Dark Chocolate about them.
Very Cute LHs though.

[Toety]

are of the same dog... all Peter :D

here is another.. I just love taking pictures of him as he will just hold his poses. HAHAHAHA ~

http://bonekaku.homestead.com/peter_2july2004_003.jpg


Now I know... he is a black/tan... I didn't know that black/tan would also have hints of brown in them... cool.. hehehe. as he is not jet black like 2 other dachshunds we saw in our Dachshund Meet Up last Saturday, then again... maybe Peter is still changing his coat, after all, he is only just 4 months old.

may i know how often dachshunds change their coats, please?


thanks for the color education,

toety :flower:

[willsana]

Thanks for sharing your pictures. They are all great. The last one is more than great! :)

[doxunzX3]

What a little cutie! I can see why you couldn't pass him up. I love all the different poises. He is very stylish too for such a little guy. So how long does he leave the cloths on before he starts to chew on them?;) :greensq:

[Heide]

this thread. I am totally lost when it comes to the colors and the genetics.
But both of these puppers are absolutely gorgeous.
I could look at them all day long.

[Toety]

he normally bites a little when I just put any of the t-shirts on... but after that... no more... he can even fall alseep wearing it... and when I bring him out to the park, I normally would make him wear a t-shirt too.. so that he won't get dirty so easily... n sometimes, even helps prevent ants or bugs from biting him :D

I love sewing for dogs... I made all those clothes he was wearing in the pictures.. hehehe ~

last 2 pictures to sign out for the day.. (its nearly midnight here)

http://bonekaku.homestead.com/peter_firetruck3July2004_002.jpg

http://bonekaku.homestead.com/peter_firetruck3July2004_008.jpg


toety :flower:

[TessieMom]

Cute outfits for a cute puppy!