I'm going for it.... Raw foods for Owen!

[Owen's Mom]

OK... I'm off to the market to pick up the ingredients to start Owen off on a fully raw food diet! http://dachsie.org/ubb/biggrin.gif Actually a friend I met from the Wiener Writings Board has her dogs on it and they are BEAUTIFUL! Low stool volume, clear eyes, great teeth, haven't needed to see the Vet since they've been on it. I'm using the same recipe she does http://www.geocities.com/Petsburgh/1848/recipe.html and have done lots of research on BARF in general (Bones and Raw Food) and can't wait to put Owen on food where I know exactly what is in it!! http://dachsie.org/ubb/cool.gif

I'll keep you all posted on how the "change over" goes! He's already getting raw marrow bones and he LOVES them!

~~Amy~~

[Brunk1 & CC]

Amy,

I thing you will be happy with your choice. I started CC on the same food about three weeks ago. She has been doing great. Her coat is much brighter and softer. Proir she has some problems with flakes, etc. Not any more. She use to like to eat food from my plate as I ate. Now if I give her a little piece of food that I am eating she will play with it then leave it alone. The only problem I am having is getting her to eat the vegetables. She simly likes the meat. I put a vitamin in the meat to ensure she gets some supplement to the meat and vegetables. Anyway good luck with your experiment.

[Wienergal]

Want to get your dachsie to eat veggies? HIDE 'EM! We send our dachshunds on carrot hunts--we hide little carrots all over the office, then release the hounds. They love this game, and they gobble up the carrots as fast as they find them!

Also, try smearing a carrot or green bean with peanut butter.

Amy, why is a raw diet supposed to be better? And where do you give Owen his raw bones? I mean, not on the carpet, I assume...

[Krista]

I've been thinking about switching too. I have given Rudy a few bits of raw meat here and there over the past few weeks when I am preparing dinner. He goes nuts. He already eats some raw veggies like carrots for treats.

The raw diet is supposed to be more complete for canines because raw foods have certain enzymes in them (destroyed by cooking) that a dog needs. Think about it -what do wild dogs and wolves eat? Raw food.

Anyway -I'm still contemplating it. Right now I'm just supplementing his Flint River Ranch (all natural all human grade ingredient baked kibble)with raw foods. I'm going to try the marrow bones too. -outside or in the kitchen only. I have read that it is important to freeze all meat/marrow bones for 72 hours and then thaw before feeding to kill bacteria.

here are sites to get more info on http://www.geocities.com/HotSprings/1158/animals.htm
http://home.earthlink.net/~msalvail/barflink.html

[Owen's Mom]

Hey Pamela http://dachsie.org/ubb/biggrin.gif

A raw diet, if you really research it, is supposed to be the best thing for dogs. Dog's are carnivores of the highest order and the food we usually feed does not have the enzymes that dogs need to stay healthy and fight things like cancer, digestive disorders, allergies... I've read a lot about it and met several people w/dachshunds on a raw diet (one couple has their pair on it and I call her last night, she about cried from happiness knowing that I was going to feed Owee raw food). There's a lot of time and money that goes into it, so we'll see how it goes. I think that once I get all the supplements down, and the amount he needs to stay at his optimum weight, it will only get easier. I don't have to feed as much as I would w/kibble because the meat is so much more the base of the food, I put a little brown rice, but I will wean him off of all grains in time. I give him his marrow bone on an old blanket and he knows he has to keep it there if we wants to keep the bone at all http://dachsie.org/ubb/biggrin.gif then he like to roll on it once he's got all the good stuff out of it.

The ground beef comes from Whole Foods Mkt (organic), I pulp the veggies and I throw a couple of raw eggs w/shells and some garlic into the blender, along with a can of salt free green beans into the ground beef (a higher fat content than what we would usually buy, dogs use fat like we do carbs... It's actually good for them) and then I make a hamburger patty looking thing and freeze it in individual zip lock bags. Take one out of the freezer in the a.m. and stick it in the fridge to defrost for his dinner.... Now Owen eats better than I do!!

I'll keep you posted as I get used to feeding and supplementing him on this new diet. I just really want him to be as happy and healthy as possible for a full 16-18 yrs http://dachsie.org/ubb/cool.gif
~~Amy~~

[Mandy]

Our guys love raw veggies. Henry would do anything for his favorite - tomatoes. Jakey is most fond of celery. But carrots, cucumbers, etc. all make their list. I am curious about this totally raw diet. I plan to read up on it when I get the chance. But for now, can someone educate me a little? Are raw meats really safe for them to eat?

[Owen's Mom]

Yes, dogs are fine with raw meats. They don't get Ecoli and Salmaella like humans because they have a higher balance of Acids in their bellies among other things. That's why a dog can bury a bone or pigs ear in the yard and dig it up weeks later, eat it and be fine.


Stay away from tomatoes, eggplant and onion as any treats. Tomatoes and Eggplant are members of the Nightshade family and have some toxins that aren't beneficial to dogs and Onions are flat out BAD BAD BAD for doggies (as is chocolate). Keep up with the carrots, zuccini, broccoli, apples.... no catalope, though I can't remember exactly why right now http://dachsie.org/ubb/cool.gif

Why not start with giving the furkids a frozen marrow bone (like a soup bone) and see how they do. It's amazing to see them chew on those bones... be sure it's raw, as raw bones don't splinter like cooked ones. http://dachsie.org/ubb/smile.gif

~~Amy~~

[2DogsLong]

Amy,

Why do you give them the marrow bone frozen?

I'd really like to give the boys raw meat (says the vegetarian) but in a non-offensive form (no dripping blood). Any suggestions? What slaughtered (sorry) animal bits can I use? Is chicken as good for them as beef?

What ratio of meat to kibble should I use? Eg. If I usually feed them 2 cups of kibble, can I instead give them one cup and a chicken leg?

They stop eating their kibble when they're full, but I'm sure they won't stop eating meat until thier sides split.

Should I expect some stinkiness from them the first couple of times I give them meat?

What have you found out on your travels?

Sue the herbivore
(RoobyRocks, where are you?)

[Krista]

Freezing the bones does help kill bacteria and it makes them chew on it longer to get the marrow out. (longer treat, more excersied jaws, more teeth cleaning time).

Right now, I give Rudy bits of raw meat that has been frozen at least 72 hours and thawed. I have done chicken breast pieces and ground beef. I really don't know how much to give, because I just give it as a supplemental snack right now. I'm still counting on the FRR to give him most of his nutrition.

I'm sure that one of those sites I posted has a feeding guide by weight or something.

[Mandy]

Amy - Thanks for the tip on tomatoes. Henry will be disappointed, but I'm sure he'll live (especially so without them). Does anyone know of a website which lists poisonous plants? I would really like to have an idea of what types of plants to keep out of the house and yard. Bart was really proud that he picked out and planted morning glories all by himself. Unfortunately, I found this out after Jakey decided to come along and eat them. Morning glories aare poisonous to dogs and luckily all Jakey got was an upset tummy. I would like to prevent any other mishaps.

[Wienergal]

Well, this is really interesting. I confess that, although I knew that wild canids eat virtually nothing but raw meat, it never occurred to me that it would be beneficial for domestic dogs. After all, our ancestors ate raw meat too. But Amy is right about the reduced danger of bacterial poisoning in dogs, so it might be worth a try. Amy, I'll be waiting to hear how Owen does with his new rations.

I think I'll try the frozen marrow bones. If I confine them to the kitchen and spread a big old blanket on the floor, that should work out. Farfel really could use a long-lasting healthy chew experience. He goes through chewies SO fast! I swear, when he's working on a rawhide bone, it's like he's stoned! I'm off to the market!!

Thanks for introducing this idea, Amy. I love this about message boards--I would never have thought of this myself!

[Owen's Mom]

Well Well Miss Vegie! http://dachsie.org/ubb/smile.gif

I would give the pups frozen marrow bones to start. As Krista said, it makes the marrow last longer and you can store them in the freezer for quite a while and pull one out when you need it and toss it to the hounds http://dachsie.org/ubb/cool.gif

As for meats to feed them... I'm using ground beef suplemented w/pulped veggies, eggs and egg shells... BUT people who feed soley BARF (Bones And Raw Food) base most of the feedings on buthcher by-product meat such as turkey and chicken necks, wings, organ meat and such. What they do is make friends with the local butcher and get great deals on these pieces by buying them in bulk. Now, let me tell you, the thought of Owen eating a whole raw chicken wing or neck is horifying to me! BUT, some friends from the other board gave their dachsie boys wings, and they held their breath as they watched them eat them... they went down like butter and the dogs were sooooo happy to be eating them. You have to remember that raw chicken bones are really mostly cartalige and don't spinter until they've been cooked. And necks are atriculated, so they go down quite easily.

I guess my biggest thing about feeding dogs other than dry kibble is to go back 50 or so years before some really smart person came up with making kibble and canned dog food. There was no such thing before then... what did the doggies eat??? They ate whatever grandma and grandpa threw at them! Byproducts (not the kind listed on the bag of Purina 1), organ meats, bruised veggies, fruits etc... Anyway... Keep asking questions and I'll keep looking for answers for all of us http://dachsie.org/ubb/biggrin.gif

~~Amy~~

[2DogsLong]

Thanks and Ewwwwwww!

Couldn't they find a better acronym than BARF? Our newest political party was the Canadian 'Conservative Reform Alliance Party' until they realized that that was CRAP. http://dachsie.org/ubb/smile.gif

If I give the carnivorous hounds meat in the morning, I guess they will just eat as much kibble as they need in the day. Don't get too upset but we 'free feed' them from one bowl. Both are slim and healthy. Some days they leave food, others they eat it all - and neither dog hogs the bowl. If they ever start to get pudgy or possessive about their food we will resort to 2x daily feedings but until then...

I'm not into ground beef because it drips blood and must be portioned. I'll try for butcher scraps since that way I won't be increasing the market demand for meat. I'm assuming that for a dog a neck or wing is as healthy as a leg. If I act really cute and helpless, maybe I can get someone at the store to put the flesh in snack-sized baggies so I won't have to touch the stuff.

TwoCarrotsLong

[Krista]

Sue, Two words for you: Disposable Gloves. Did you look at those links I posted -they suggest cheap and easy ways to get the goods. One of them said they give their toy poodle 3 chicken necks a day as a base and then some tidbits here and there of veggies and other stuff. I don't know how much a toy weighs, but that is a starting point anyway.

[Wienergal]

CHICKEN NECKS?????????

I was really interested in this diet, but--YIKES!--I would be truly terrified to give my dogs necks or wings, with all those little bones in them!! I hear you when you say bones get splinter-y when they're cooked, but I guess it's just years of conditioning. I can picture it now: my dogs are choking to death, and it is MY FAULT, because I fed them a chicken neck.... http://dachsie.org/ubb/eek.gif

Is it really safe? Really? Really really?.... http://dachsie.org/ubb/confused.gif

Sue, the conservative party was called CRAP? Sounds about right to me! http://dachsie.org/ubb/wink.gif I love how Canadians just cut right to the heart of the matter....eh?

[Owen's Mom]

First of all... I'd Belong to the CRAP party just because of the name... and I'm a Liberal!!

Second... I know the thought of the little ones crunching away on raw chicken bones is frightening! http://dachsie.org/ubb/eek.gif But, I'll put dollars to dachshunds that more doggies have choked on rawhides getting stuck in their throats than on raw bones. We have been conditioned to never give our dogs chicken bones (and rightly so!) as cooked bones are "splinter central." BUT... Raw bones aren't going to splinter like that. You have to go to some of the links that Krista provided and really start reading up on the whole thing. I don't think it's just a fad either, I really think it's going to take over with well educated dog owners.

Also... LOVED Krista's comment of the use of Disposable Gloves! http://dachsie.org/ubb/tongue.gif Very funny! I worked in a kitchen as a prep cook one summer in college and couldn't eat red meat for about 2 years after that. Then, one day... I just had to have it!! http://dachsie.org/ubb/biggrin.gif Haven't looked back since. I understand those who don't eat it for health and ethical reasons though. If only I cared as much about what goes into my body and I do about what goes into Owen's!!

~~Amy~~

[WOTANSMUTTI]

They've done it again, those sneaky little doxies! A new diet that includes ALL the stuff the hooomans were afraid to feed them before. Now, just pass the carob-bars,since we can't have chocolate. http://dachsie.org/ubb/smile.gif

All my dogs have always gotten bones. We scorch 'em in the oven for a minute w/ garlic powder so they won't bury them the first minute that they get them. Dog politics take over...

Sadie and Diva have killed and eaten at least 15 chickens in their rotten careers,chomping down most of it-even some feathers. They usually eat the head,but leave the feet and wings. I would be hesitant to giving wings because they are sharp cooked or raw.

I think raw vegis and fruit are great-the coyotes eat fruit out of the orchards and corn out of the fields here in Sept. Sadie Mae knows all about ripe strawberries vs. green ones http://dachsie.org/ubb/smile.gif

Amy- this sounds radical, but you are right about what dogs have always been eating.A BIG variety.


Mostly, they were camp followers and ate
waste of all kinds. I believe variety is the key to health of all beings (dogs and us)

[Wienergal]

Well, I've started reading at some of the sites, Amy. Because Peaches has suffered from severe allergies her whole life, I am always on the lookout for a new approach. In my own mind, a raw diet makes some sense, primarily in avoiding all the processing that goes into even the best dog food, and also, since only organic foods are used, in avoiding the antibiotics, hormones, and god-knows-what-all that are poured into and onto U.S. food products. OK. So far, so good.

But then I saw a few things on one of the big sites that made me nervous. One was the inevitable claim that this diet cures cancer. I guess we are all just hoping so much that if we can just figure out what to get rid of in our techno-industrial world, cancer will go quietly away. I've had cancer, and I harbor that hope myself. I eat LOTS of organic food! But that worried me a little bit, because I just don't think it's a legitimate claim.

The second thing was all the talk about enzymes. It was kind of vague, and as a medical writer, I couldn't figure it out.

These are just issues I'm bringing up because I'm interested, NOT to disparage the idea or create conflict! I'd really like to have a thorough discussion of the raw diet on this board. Mostly, of course, I don't want to do my dogs any harm. That's the bottom line.

On the plus side, it has been known for years that raw eggs will improve a dog's coat, but not cooked eggs. Of course, you have to give them eggs from free-range, organically raised chickens. Don't, for heaven's sake, give them the cheap, factory-raised chicken eggs from the supermarket!! Don't even eat them yourself! http://dachsie.org/ubb/frown.gif

Comments, please!!!

[doxielover]

I'll throw in my 2 cents here; I guess I'm skeptical about today's meat, MORE importantly about the chickens, cattle, etc. All I can add to this is, BE CAREFUL! Years ago, we didn't have the problems with viruses & diseases like we have today. I personally would NOT give raw meat & poultry unless if I were CERTAIN it was safe, and I KNEW where it came from. I also feel that it's extremely important to start out slowly. Dogs in the Wild have developed a tolerance and immunity to nasties, where it could kill our domesticated companions. I've read pros & cons on it. I just want to emphasize to do your homework first! http://dachsie.org/ubb/smile.gif AMY, good luck and please keep us updated, ok? I DO like the thought of natural food myself, but then again I have to draw the line somewhere. I'll stick to Innova.

Susan

[2DogsLong]

Wienergal, I was also skeptical about the claims made and stats given at some of the sites promoting a raw diet.

I think I'm going to take it slowly with the boys. Chris has agreed to make 'meatballs' from raw ground beef that I can give them in the morning. I'll move onto meat with bones very slowly and cautiously. Frankie doesn't chew the food that he likes and while the bones may not splinter, they could still get wedged in his throat.

How many eggs per week can a dog have? One? I don't want them to have high cholesterol.

If only I cared this much about my own diet.

[WOTANSMUTTI]

"How many eggs can a dog have in a week?"

As many as they can steal, at least that's the scenario around here. Eggs are seasonal in the wild, so it's usually a spring thing with the snitched goose eggs.

I know that raw eggs inhibit the absorbtion of calcium or bind vitamin B or some such thing that's why you can't feed carno-lizards too many raw eggs. I woundn't worry about the salmonella b/c Amy's right about those nasty tummy juices.
I figure an egg or two a week wouldn't harm any dog unless it has allegies to them.

When I cut up meat for the freezer I always chop some up for my little Wotan shadow. He got some today. He promptly buried the marrow bone he got and begged by me until he got the red stuff.

With any diet, I was thinking, one should go slow,like kids mixing and introducing as you go. Most dogs seem to know what they need if they aren't starving or too greedy.

Sadie Mae, the dob/rot got ahold of a muskrat yesterday . She was using it for a pillow the first time I took it away, then later she got it back and wouldn't come out of her dog house until 3/4 of it was eaten. Head first.Tail last. YUCK. Didn't catch it til it was too late...

Wotan and the outside girls seem to do great on a variety of foods-some table scraps, mostly kibbles, raw food (sometimes gotten against the hooman's will). What ever works to keep the organism healthy and bright eyed.

[loving two dachsie's]

I make an egg for Ginger and Bialey every Sunday morning, the rest of the week its Flint River Ranch (which I just started and they love it).

Both of my puppers love raw carrots and grapes, I give it to them as treats!

I will have to check out the sites Amy posted, sounds pretty interesting. As far as I am concerened the more natural the better for me and my long doggies http://dachsie.org/ubb/smile.gif

Amy, let us know how Owen makes out on his new diet http://dachsie.org/ubb/smile.gif

Linda

[Owen's Mom]

Well, it's been 5 days since Owen started his raw diet. He's doing great! He eats it all in minutes (he used to pick and take between 1.5 hrs and 3 days to eat, he'd go in spurts). Most surprising to me is that he hasn't had ANY soft stool since starting the diet. When I've tried him on Innova, and a couple other foods, they were simply too rich for his belly and they went right through him, if you know what I mean http://dachsie.org/ubb/wink.gif. So, I've been waiting for the explosion... Nada!! Also, in the a.m. we always go outside between 6 and 6:15 to go potty and he'd always pee and have a B.M. right away... Not anymore, he's not constipated, but his stool volume is MUCH lower, he'll wait to poop until we walk a little later. I guess not having filler really makes a big difference. He still has lots of energy, and he gets a raw marrow bone every other day or so. As for the eggs, I put two eggs per 3 lbs of meat. I don't know how many that is per day though. 6 lbs of meat, plus the pulped veggies and 2.5 cups of brown rice came out to 22 "meatballs" at between 5-7 ounces each. I'm probably going to add some flax seed oil and Missing Link supplement still, I'm still playing with the recipe a little.

I'll keep updating you http://dachsie.org/ubb/smile.gif

~~Amy~~

BTW about it curing cancer... Puh Leeze... there are fanatics on every end of every thing. Just let those claims go... I have come across a few posters who have dogs that have far outlived their diagosis of when they should have gone to the bridge with cancer since they have been following a BARF diet though. I think that many of the things that are added to dog food these days probably contribute to the high cancer rate we see in our pets these days though. So, I do see a raw diet and preventative.

[2DogsLong]

I'm glad the diet is working for you!! I have another load of questions:

What IS a marrow bone? Cow leg? I asked for marrow bones and they didn't know what I was talking about. Are they soup bones?

Do you leave the bone in the cage with Owen when you are gone or does the gnawing need to be supervised? Can they eventually get pieces off? When I give the boys bones they always end up rubbing the skin off the top of their noses in an attempt to 'get right in there'. They are cute with little pink noses but it's probably not the best thing for them.

Next time I'll get a rabbit.

-- I saw on the Zone that someone let their dog eat a squirrel that it killed. This doesn't sound like a good thing to me even though it is 'natural'. The squirrel could have had any number of diseases or worms, the dog could have choked on the fluffy tail, it might get a taste for blood and go for your jugular in the night... http://dachsie.org/ubb/smile.gif
Wotansmutti -- do you let Wo eat the mice he catches?

[WOTANSMUTTI]

Since Wotan is my "baby" he gets all the finer things in life, like rodent carcasses, taken away by the mean mother figure. He doesn't enjoy this,however, and gets a really spaced-out look in his eyes when I snatch the KILL. One thing I've noticed about Wo is that he only wants to nibble on the animals he dispatches-he's not into other dead stuff.

All wild animals have worms and parasites. I have to worm my big doggies now and then when they really get into digging for mice.I've seen Sadie Mae gulp up a whole mouse nest full of pinkies like a kid with gummie worms.

Wotan isn't impressed with Innova food either. He goes out and steals the big dog Purina kibbles,even though he really has to work that little mouth of his.

Wow! Can't believe folks don't know what marrow bones are. Marrow is the stuff inside of the bones. Usually, that and with the bit of meat they leave around a knuckle/joint bone are the soup-bones. When they cut the long bones into cross sections, the marrow which is like fat,is in the middle. Doggies love 'em. I do have one warning-this happened to poor greedy Sadie Mae, the original "oink". One morning, going off to work I noticed Sadie Mae with a bone in her mouth. It just didn't look right,so I bent down and she had the ring worked over her bottom canines and chin. I worked and she cried and after 15 mins ( I still don't know how we got it off) it finally came. I now make sure to give the big dogs rings that can't fit around their jaws.

As for the pink -bunny dachsie noses: take the bonies aways after the yummy stuff in the middle is all gone. Sounds like your babies love the bones so much they'll endure pain http://dachsie.org/ubb/smile.gif

[Owen's Mom]

Wotan's Momma,
Who ever sold you the Innova should take it back if Wotan's not eating it, or if you're not satisfied. I'd try him on a simplier food, like Avo-Derm and buy the smallest bag you can to start. I would usually suggest mixing something like cottage cheese or egg w/the food they aren't eating, but Innova is so rich already, I think you'd throw him over the top if you added anything else to it. Not that the goose wouldn't appreciate the left overs, but maybe there is a rescue or shelter in your area that would benefit from the left over Innova if the place you bought it from won't take it back.

As for the bones, It's a marrow bone, which is a cross cut of a cow leg bone. They can't pull giant pieces of bone off, but I let Owen chew as much as he wants on it, it takes care of any plaque (he has very shiny teethies!!) http://dachsie.org/ubb/biggrin.gif I don't let him have it unsupervised, but to be honest, he won't eat anything if I'm not around, crazy dachshund. He'll just let it sit until I'm back in the room. And I put yummies in his crate before I leave for work and when I come home he runs out to say hi, then back in and drags out all the tasties to eat. If your furkids scrape up their noses, I'd have to agree, they're really loving them! I'd just take them away once they get through the marrow and eat off any extra meat on the outside

~~Amy~~

[Roobyrocks]

For cryin' out loud, Amy. Everytime I think Rooby's on the right diet, you go and do more research! http://dachsie.org/ubb/tongue.gif Just kidding... I really appreciate you sharing all the info you gather.
I am way behind on reading the board lately, and all this talk about eating raw meat is NOT what I wanted to come here and see, though! http://dachsie.org/ubb/smile.gif However, I do agree with your point about dogs being carnivores, etc. I just can't bring myself to deal with the raw meat... yek. TwoCarrots, are you really going to do this?? Guess I need to print this topic out and read it when I have more time.
Bleck... raw bones? raw meat? ewwww! http://dachsie.org/ubb/rolleyes.gif

[Wienergal]

Roobyrocks, so glad to see you back among us! Where you been???

Amy, I'm delighted to hear that Owen's doing so well on the diet! Once you get the recipe down, will you post it for the rest of us? I like the idea of lower stool volume!! Not only does it mean the dogs' systems are working well, but it means I have a lot less to pick up on our walks!

Yeah, I know--raw meat, raw bones...ick-a-roo! But hey--that IS what the canids eat, so.... Amy, what's this supplement you're talking about?

[Owen's Mom]

As for supplements.... There is one called "Missing Link" that is, from what I've heard, excellent. You can order it for a great price at www.jbpet.com (http://www.jbpet.com) http://dachsie.org/ubb/smile.gif I'll probably just pick it up at my local dog boutique because I'll do anything to give her business and keep her going (running a small business is tough!!) Also, Flax seed oil is a great doggie supplement (as is Olive Oil) and a little goat's milk yogurt is a great way to supplement their diets with some healthy bacteria and a little added calcium. Let me keep researching and I'll keep posting. Here is the link the "The Recipe" that I'm currently using (minus the tomatoe, it is rich in vitamin C, but it's a member of the nightshade family and shouldn't really be fed to dogs). http://www.geocities.com/Petsburgh/1848/recipe.html

Try the jbpet.com site out for lots of great things, such as booda velvets, nylabones, toys etc.... http://dachsie.org/ubb/biggrin.gif

~~Amy~~