"White" Doxie rumor

[quavec]

I was on another board a while ago just browsing through and saw that a discussion on "white" dachshunds was a big issue at one point. I didn't join the discussion since I am absolutely clueless as to the genetics of breeding, but from what I was reading, it didn't seem like this was a good thing to be shooting for due to genetic issues. The discussion got a bit heated as it went along w/one saying they had seen a white doxie and another saying it doesn't exist. Then others argued that this is a horrible example of breeders trying to make $$ and not caring about the outcome of the actual pup healthwise. I don't know about ANY of this but was wondering since there are such a wide assortment of patterns, colors etc if there are white doxies out there. And if so, are there alot of health issues w/them? Is this a "locness" monster type myth?

[Me&DappledDuo]

There's no such thing as a genetically white dachshund- the way there are white coats in other breeds. Severely white double dapples are often paraded as "rare white" dachshunds the crappy idiotic mills, commercial breeders and BYBs- but NO ONE with any knowledge or morals would TRY THIS. We're all well aware of the risks of double dapples- or SHOULD be (the number of times it's been discussed- and with Heide's Ben, Lori's Annie, Barbara's Gala and the many others we have on the board).

Some equally questionable breeders think they can create a white dachshund with the spotting gene (piebalding). The problem with either method is that both genes create random white dilutions- you can't create a white strain that way. It's simply dumb. :dizzy:

I know we talked about albinism in another thread, the fact that in dogs- it's always been a freak motation if it HAS occurred, and the defects associated with albinos of any species.

So no- there's NO SUCH THING as a "white dachshund" that one could breed for. And there SHOULDN'T be. My lord- there aren't enough color/pattern/coat varieties to choose from- already? :eek:

[Patt]

I don't believe there is a 'white dachshund' I'm sure the other members can fill you in. But I think the statement you made would be more like it...

"Then others argued that this is a horrible example of breeders trying to make $$ and not caring about the outcome of the actual pup healthwise"......

[quavec]

The ones that argued against the "white" doxie (IMO) seemed to be more inclined to have the breeds best interests at heart. I was just curious. Thanks for the info.

[floaty10]

And found this site:

http://www.lildachs.com/genetics.htm

Lots of Genetic "stuff" that I really have no comprehension of...so don't know how true or accurate any of it is...

I agree with the author of the site tho--breeding toward a pure white (Albino?) could and probably would cause issues with blindness/deafness. Although, through my limited understanding of the genetic "chains" shown, it appears it could be done. But why? Albinos of all species (including humans) have many serious medical problems in sight/hearing.

So is it worth it to breed towards this and risk a blind and deaf pup or two?

Let's all scream it together:

H**L NO!

[Anatresia]

That was some tough reading for an art teacher (science & math are foreign to me) but it was informative.

[Me&DappledDuo]

Here's the earlier thread about albinism:
Albino? (http://www.dachsie.org/vbb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=11662&highlight=albino)

NO- dachshunds do not carry the gene for true Albinism (Cc). We do see Ch in dachshunds- it's responsible for creams. All the C alleles are grouped under "Albino"- so technically, yes- cream is a form of albinism. But creams are not white, and not what peope normally think of as an albino. :)

[Dachshundrsq]

A Pure White Dachshund. It was exhibited at a dog show in Sydney, Austrailia. The judge, Robert Cole, was so taken by the bitch, that he stopped the show to go get his camera and asked to take a picture of her. I will be attaching the article to this. I do not know the genetics of this girl, though I would LOVE to see her pedigree and do some research on it. She isn't the Best Specimen of a Dachshund, but neither were the early piebald dachshunds or the early Miniature Dachshunds.
Keep in mind that I bred a puppy that was pure white at birth and obtained a solitary nickel size spot on her side (of the body) then she had minimal tan coloring around each eye spreading to each ear. I sold her as a pet at about 12 weeks of age. I have called her and requested adult pictures of Casper, which she said she would send to me. I have never received them. A totally white dachshund is not impossible through at least 2 genetic routes. Chinchilla to Chinchilla (cream) through many generations of not outcrossing to red or blk/tan. Eventually the cream will wash out, keep breeding to washed out creams and eventually a pigmented white dachshund will appear. (MANY white breeds are from the "c" series) Albinism is a gene that is not thought to be part of the genetics of dogs. So you will not see a dog with pink eyes, they do not exist. The other possible way to see an all white dachshund is through the extreme white spotting gene. (Sw) Sw has the potential to produce a dog with very minimal spotting. It is thought that there are several genes outside of the Spotting series that controls, say "masking", "Colored Heads". So that a pure white body may appear through the Sw gene, but a solid colored head could be obtained on an otherwise pure white dog. Many piebald dachshunds have the gene to produce solid colored heads. I have seen a few (Casper being one) that have a lot white on the head. I have seen a picture of a wholly white bitch, bred here in the USA. She was 99% white. The only color on her was at the tips of the ears and what would be considered her eyelids. So to answer the question of "Has there ever been a White Dachshund??" Yes there has been. I would say there have been a "few" of them.

Here is the article the judge wrote:

http://romandachs.com/whitedachshund.jpg

[Me&DappledDuo]

Truly interesting, Beckie- but doesn't make my stomach feel good. :(

[Dachshundrsq]

That it is VERY possible to breed a completely HEALTHY White Dachshund. No Blindness, No Deafness. You see the "True" white dachshund will have pigmented eye rims and would not have the problems the lack of pigmented hairs inside the ears that a Double Dapple has the potential of producing.The white dachshund would be no different really than a Westie or any other "White" breed.

[Patt]

Beckie, thanks for the info and the update on Casper, I wondered what had happened to her she was a cutie. ;)

[Me&DappledDuo]

Thanks, Beckie. I think you really are right- that it may one day be possible. I'm just far too worried about the steps some people will take, and the risks they will make, to get there. Careful, responsible breeding is amazing- I truly think someone with enough care could "make" just about anything they want to out of a breed. There just aren't enough like you around- and WAY too many of the "Ooooo... let's see what happens if I do THIS!" type.

As always, I appreciate your knowledge. :)

[Dachshundrsq]

are the ones who keep the people you speak of "in business".
Q Joe public wants:
1.)What no one else has...#1 reason "Rare" dachshunds, even if they are not rare, are being sold by the dozens. People want something different, they really don't care how the different was made.
2.) To breed their precious dachshund so their children can experience the miracle of birth, or so they can make a dachshund JUST like the one they have for friends and family.
What Q Joe Public NEEDS is Education.........
Puppy Mills will sell you AKC registered dogs with FULL AKC rights to breeding for an additional fee.
Puppy Mills will post the official AKC Standard on their websites, proving they are reputable and responsible. Or so it looks that way.
Puppy Mills will have "Rare" colors posted on their websites.
Blues, Isabellas, Double Dapples, Blue Double Dapples, Isabella Double Dapples, Dapple Piebald, Piebald, Cream Piebald,...You get the picture.
They will use the words "Show Puppies" Yet will not have ANY show pictures listed on their websites.
They will charge a full range of prices for different colors.
They use Paypal to sell puppies instantly.
They will give a health guarantee, usually a replacement puppy (as if Q Joe Public would send back the precious sick puppy for a replacement) They usually give a Genetic Guarantee for 1-2 yrs against Genetic Diseases.
Epilepsy- Genetic Onset between 2-3 yrs of age.
IVDD- Genetic Onset usually between 2-4 years of age.
Thyroid Disease...onset is usually between 4-8 yrs of age.
PRA in Dachshunds is usually Late Onset.

Joe Q Public needs to be EDUCATED. Until they are educated, Puppy Mills will always have a place to sell puppies.
APR, APRI and CKC (not Canadian Kennel Club) will register a turd if you have both parents registered with either them or AKC.
Joe Q Public thinks "Registered" is registered regardless of the registry.

[Me&DappledDuo]

APR, APRI and CKC (not Canadian Kennel Club) will register a turd if you have both parents registered with either them or AKC
Heheh... do you think they even CARE if the parents are registered? I'm pretty sure you can just register Mr. and Mrs. Turd along with the turdie juniors. :eek:

You are 100% right- if the public knew and CARED- mills would have a lot of trouble. I think education is a BIG part- but dealing with the apathetic attitudes of much of society is an even tougher one.

Oh well... we can only try, right?

[kpm_tex]

From that Becky posted it sounds like 'white' in dacshunds would just be a very diluted cream... which is kind of like the 'cremello' colored horse I used to own. His coloring is the product of 2 palominos (creams?) breeding. He is a light almost white cream color, you can faintly see that he has a white blaze too. He also has blue eyes. In horses true white is lethal, foals born that way die with 72 hours :sad: Color genetics gets pretty interesting I'll have to see if the the combintations are similar between horses and dogs.

Casper

http://mediaservice.photoisland.com/auction/Aug/20048205812439897075774.jpg

[Lilaminallover]

ohh myy godddd casper is the most beautful horse i've ever seen! that is my first time seeing a white horse. but i have seen a horse with a white heart on her head, and she had a baby who had what looked like a white arrow on his back.