So many colors: recessive-dominant ones

[Muppet]

<IMG SRC="http://dachsie.org/ubb/cwmsmilies/cwm25.gif" border=0> (This is kinda long.)

Boy have things changed since I used to breed dachshunds years and years ago. (My last baby is now 10 yrs old.) Back then the only colors we knew about were red and black & tan.

I decided to get another dachshund with intentions of breeding on a small scale again. (One or two litters every couple of years.) My hubby, knowing this, suprised me last year with a dapple puppy for my birthday.

Zoe is now 1 1/2 and it is time to start thinking about adding the male doxie to our home. I recently sent off for Zoe's pedigree so I can learn more about her color background. (Didn't do it earlier because I wasn't sure how she was going to turn out. Never had a dapple before so I wasn't sure about considering her for breeding until I had a chance to see firsthand that this pattern was ok. I've seen some patterns in horses that were not, so I felt that it would be best to wait on the pedigree.)

I know that Zoe's dam was a black & tan while her sire was a chocolate dapple. The breeder that we got Zoe from does have blue & tans in some of their dogs' genetic makeups, but I am not sure yet about Zoe. (Pedigree will help on that.)

I want to know which colors are dominant over which others as I am only used to breeding reds and black & tans. (Zoe is a black & tan dapple.) I have heard that chocolate is recessive, as is black & tan. But is that to only red or is one of the recessive colors more "dominate" than the other? Basically what colors are dominant and recessive to what other colors. I'm trying to find a book on the subject but living in a small rural town doesn't make it easy to find such a book locally and I can't get enough time to go on a shopping trip until they hire more help at my job. (I am being spread thin at three newpapers - mine and two sister papers - because the sister papers have lost all but one of their reporters.) So if you could help me by pointing me in the right direction until I can get to a real city that has actual bookstores. I would greatly appriecate it. Thanks

I do know that whatever color the new doxie will be, he won't be a dapple variety of that color because I don't like what I am hearing and seeing of dapple-to-dapple breeding.

[pkmiddler]

Try to find the book written by Dee & Bruce Hutchinson the color section is written by Mary Sue Humphries she now uses her maiden name Burnam.This has very good color info.

[Susan'sFreddie98]

You can also read Lil Paws Ranch www.miniaturedachshunds.com (http://www.miniaturedachshunds.com) Deborah Lupton specializes in the patterns, and has a lot of knowledge. She does NOT breed Double Dapples, just Dapples. On her Website there is a link 'Explanation on Dachshund Colors and Patterns'. That should help. Feel free to contact Deborah, I'm sure she would be happy to help.http://dachsie.org/ubb/smilies/smile.gif

~Susan~

<FONT COLOR="#00FFFF" SIZE="1" FACE="Verdana, Arial">This message has been edited by Susan'sFreddie98 on March 25, 2001 at 04:03 AM</font>

[Timber]

You can also go to Doxie's Kennel (http://www.doxieskennel.com) . They have some really good pics and explanations of the different colors and patterns.

------------------
Tiffany
Future SplashMountain Kennels

[Cindi]

Muppet, although I will probably get skewered over this...read the book and skip the suggested websites. Or talk to a reputable color breeder that can be found through DCA's website...or read the book. And there are color genetic books out there although many are difficult to read http://dachsie.org/ubb/smilies/smile.gif. The one I have and get the most use out of is The Inheritance of Coat Color in Dogs by Clarence Little.
Black and tan is recessive. Chocolate and tan is also recessive. They can both be carried for generations without being expressed. You know that your girl carries chocolate and tan because her sire was c/t dapple. You cannot carry dapple, it has to be expressed in order to be reproduced. Blue and tan is not, in my mind, something to aim for as they frequently have little coat and skin problem tendencies. It is also recessive - they're everywhere, those recessives. Red is dominant to everything. Black and tans bred together can only produce a red if it is an e-red..another recessive that is not that common. So black/tan can produce b/t, c/t and any dilute which would be the blue/tn or the dilute chocolate which I believe is the isabella/tn. I've never been able to keep in my memory banks about the isabella http://dachsie.org/ubb/smilies/frown.gif [old age]
However, if the red carries black and tan....you can get black and tans in the litter and if the red carries c/t (which you hope it doesn't due to the possiblity of getting reds with chocolate pigment) you can get c/t's.
Hope this helps but read the books <IMG SRC="http://dachsie.org/ubb/cwmsmilies/cwm38.gif" border=0>

<FONT COLOR="#00FFFF" SIZE="1" FACE="Verdana, Arial">This message has been edited by Cindi on March 25, 2001 at 04:00 PM</font>

[pkmiddler]

The area you live in has some good Doxie Clubs.Met.Wash and Met. Balt why don't you try to get to one of the shows comming up in April and talk to a breeder and maybe find a GOOD dog to breed your girl to and I'm sure you will find some wonderful people since I have so many friends out that way.

[Muppet]

<IMG SRC="http://dachsie.org/ubb/cwmsmilies/cwm1.gif" border=0> Actually, I do own a blue & tan dapple. (Grandma bought him for me as a way of thanking me for helping her out with her doll classes.) Because I have experience with dobies, I know that blue is a risky color. I would never breed my red dobe to a blue or bred her to a red because of the problems with diluted colors. (Red to Red in dobies can produce fawns which are similar to the blues when it comes to skin problems.) My blue & tan, Iceman, is a male but will be neutured and kept simply as a pet. (He is also a dapple which is why Grandma thought I would like him.) I plan to watch his coat very carefully for any problems.

Yes, I try to purchase only show quality dogs for breeding. (I do rescue work at a local shelter so I know firsthand the results of poor breeding.)

I mentioned the possiblity of blue being in Zoe's background because I wanted to stay away from other colors that would present a dulite gene(In horses, both buckskin and palomino are dilutes and will past the gene.)

As I said earlier I want to know which colors are dominant over which so that I can narrow my choices down as to a color that would be best to compliment Zoe's. But color is only second, conformation and temperment are tied for first consideration. I plan to take my time and find several good prospects, so I was kinda of hoping that color could be used as a tie-breaker if needed. (example, two equally good males, one red, one black & tan, the color could be used to decide between the two if that both were equal in all other ways, conformmation and temperment.)

My hubby gets vacation next month and said he can go to the city for the suggested books as I can still not manage to get away from work for more than a couple of hours during the day. (Two reporters are to be interview this week but I don't know if they will be hired because they really don't have much experience.)

I have been checking various websites, including Lil's. (Which is a great site in that it does explain which are recessive and must be shown or carried by both parents.)

Thanks for all the help. I think I'm starting to lean towards a red or a chocolate but am still unsure. Hopefully Zoe's pedigree will come soon and that will help, because if she does have blue in her, I'll want to consider a red as it is more dominant from what I have gathered from your comments so far.

[~Jen~]

Just a quick question... what is wrong with the liver nosed reds? I have always liked them they are recognized by the AKC as red and can be shown as such. I would never advertise one as a chocolate/tan which i have seen some seedy breeders do but if its labeled as a red what is the problem with it?

Thanks
Jen

[Cindi]

OK, Zoe is a black and tan dapple from a black and tan x chocolate/tn dapple. So she definitely carries chocolate. In order not to get red puppies with liver pigment (Jen, the reason most people do not breed for this is ... again...in the standard. Reds are supposed to have black pigment and anything less than that is undesirable...if you are breeding to the standard.) make sure that if you choose to breed to a red dog that he has never produced a chocolate nor does he have chocolate in his pedigree. Dilutions truly are not that common in my experience unless someone is trying for it. It would be nice if you could 'depend' on the pedigrees you obtain as a guarantee it won't happen but unfortunately, many people don't consider the registered color of their dog as important and some/many made mistakes and never corrected them ie as Jen said, calling a liver nosed red a chocolate and tan or a chocolate and tan that was light an isabella.
Bet this hasn't helped any has it?

[pkmiddler]

Cindi is right on the pedigree thing I have a friend who has a Grandsire,Greatgrandsire in her male's pedigree who is listed as a Brindle wll I looked it up neither of his were Brindle so he could not be a Brindle.Turns out the person that had regestered him thought he was one since he was a Dark Red with a black overlay like most of my dogs.So even AKC pedigrees are wrong if the person that filled them out did not know what color the dog really was.

[gracie bee's hoomom]

Can anyone tell me a link to see a picture of a "blue and tan" dachshund? I have never seen one and I am curious. I have seen the long hair dapples that have the blue and tan markings...But I was wondering if you were talking about a short hair. This site has been so informative! I am just tryin to broaden my knowledge. Thanks!

<FONT COLOR="#00FFFF" SIZE="1" FACE="Verdana, Arial">This message has been edited by gracie bee's hoomom on March 28, 2001 at 02:58 PM</font>

[Cindi]

It is quite possible that the 'blue and tan' dapple dachshunds you have seen were truly black and tan dapples. The 'spotting' makes the spots appear greyish at times on black and tans...that is normal. Blue and tan dachshunds is the result of a dilute factor on the black coloring and they can be a steel gray color.

[Susan63]

Gracie bee's hooman,

Scroll down a bit to Timber's (Tiffany) post dated March 25. She added the link called Doxsie's Kennel. This kennel has all colors/patterns. There is a link on their site called 'Dilute Colors'- Blue/Tan.

~Susan~

[Cindi]

<IMG SRC="http://dachsie.org/ubb/cwmsmilies/cwm36.gif" border=0> I hate to go here but........Doxie's Kennels has many errors in their 'statement of facts'. The cream pictured is a very pretty color but the statement that a black overlay is called sable is erroneous. The entire statement about wheaten is in error. I have never heard it called yellow as in fact, it is a dilute red and only occurs in wires. The fawn & tan picture appears to be a chocolate but the picture of the isabella/tan dapple is correct. The red sable picture, although I do not know what color that dog is, a true sable appears to be a black and tan from a distance. That dog does not. However, wild boar does occur in smooths.
The statement that all dachshunds must have extensions at the end of their names ie ms, ml, mw, etc. is also wrong. It is nice but not mandatory and in many cases is erroneous if put on a puppy and it grows to be 15 pounds. It is of miniature breeding but certainly not a mini.
Sorry but I just hate it when misinformation is on the web and most everyone will believe it because after all, the website takes so much knowledge to put it up that it is assumed the people doing so must be intelligent and correct in everything else.

[Susan63]

Thanks for pointing out those errors Cindi, I sure wouldn't notice!<IMG SRC="http://dachsie.org/ubb/cwmsmilies/cwm13.gif" border=0> She sure has a LARGE kennel too, doesn't she?

~Susan~

[Cindi]

Yes, it is very large and in my mind certainly qualifies as a 'commercial breeder'.

[Carol A. Smith]

I think you are being kind to call her a "commercial breeder".<IMG SRC="http://dachsie.org/ubb/cwmsmilies/cwm1.gif" border=0>

You are right, the errors on that site, and others like it are numerous. Dogs are called colors they are not, and misinformation abounds. The number of dogs owned, and litters produced should be a real tipoff as to the quality of the site.

Carol

[MarissaM]

What is a liver nose?

[Susan63]

The very first time I visited this site, I didn't like it. Definately a 'Commercial Breeder' in my mind too. Did you check out the Pedigrees? That's a clue too.<IMG SRC="http://dachsie.org/ubb/cwmsmilies/cwm25.gif" border=0> Also, the dogs are kept outside.http://dachsie.org/ubb/smilies/frown.gif

~Susan~

[Cindi]

MarissaM,
A liver nose is a chocolate color nose. The range of color can be very great...all pink to dark, dark chocolate. Only chocolate and tans or isabella/tans should have this color nose. Oh, yes, the e-reds have self-colored (also known as liver) noses and pigment. A red dog should NOT normally have light pigment! Black pigment is preferred on all colors except chocolate/tans.

And of course the dogs are kept outside....they are moneymaking stock.<IMG SRC="http://dachsie.org/ubb/cwmsmilies/cwm36.gif" border=0>