Reputable Breeder [Archive] - Dachsie's Bulletin Board

Carol Smith

03-31-2001, 08:31 AM

Reputable breeder? Now, there is a HUGE topic... If I were looking for a puppy, I would want:

To know the person has well-bred dogs, of good pedigree
Breeds for a reason, not just to have puppies to sell (i.e. for conformation, performance, field work, obedience, etc.)
Does not knowingly breed dogs with disqualifying faults, or inherited genetic problems
Has a small number of very good quality dogs, not a huge kennel
Keeps puppies until at least 10 to 12 weeks of age
Is very particular as to who buys puppies
Requires a contract that spells out clearly what happens to the dog when I take it
Has a reputation in the dachshund community
Wants to know who I am, and why I want the dog

That is just a start, but for sure, things I look for (and things I ask of people who are inquiring about one of my puppies. I breed very rarely, but am sure particular as to where the pups go, and I wouldn't buy a dog from anyone who was less particular than I am.

Carol

~Jen~

03-31-2001, 12:17 PM

Great questions Carol http://dachsie.org/ubb/smilies/smile.gif
With that said ... heres a hypothetical situation...

Young married couple want a puppy they ask around to try to find a reputable local breeder .. (reputable being the key word here) they are told to go to the parent club website for more information on breeders in their area. They find a local breeder but find that the breeder has many show champions but also ALOT of dogs (around 100 or so) but this person is still a member of the group ... should that person turn that member in for having that many dogs or should they buy from that person because he/she shows her/his dogs and is a member of the group. (in case you are wondering this isnt as hypothetical as you think ... this happened to a friend of mine recently) they then find out that this breeder is breeding NOT only their ch. but other dogs that havent been shown as well (which in my opinion doesnt matter as long as the dogs are well conformed and temperment is good..but again this goes back to a persons idea of reputable) They have LOTS of litters of pups per year so if my friend doesnt see what she wants now she could check back in a week or even a month and she may have what shes looking for. This person has no spay/neuter agreements and allows pet buyers to have full registration. My friend walks away and later contacts a person that she was told would be a good reference for this breeder this person tells my friend of the young male dog she purchased from this breeder that upon bringing him home at age 2yrs would just walk in circles and was afraid of ppl and painfully shy. Now this brings me to the question is this woman still reputable because shes in this club and shows or would my friend be better off getting a puppy from someone that maybe has a few dogs only has 2 litters maybe a year and has very good contracts but doesnt belong to any breed clubs except their local kennel club which happens to be my local kennel club also? This is important for me to know because im learning from others mistakes here IMO this breeder that belongs to this club should be booted out the door and shouldnt be allowed in the group.. i think alot of ppl get a false sense of security when they hear from a breeder "im in good standing with ....club and ...... club AND my local kennel club" Alot of puppy buyers think WOW this is great and she has show dogs too!!! Am it right? Insight would be helpful esp. from you guys that show and breed .. what would you say about this unnamed breeder ... mind you this may not even be a dachshund breeder im talking about. This issue is very close to my heart because the same thing that my friend is going through happened to me when i 1st started getting dachshunds i thought i was getting from the best but after making closer observations i realized that woman was nothing but a suger coated ... (ok i use this term loosly) puppymill. What can be done about breeders like this that belong to the parent clubs???

Help? Opinion!! Thanks for letting me bounce this off you...
Jen
PS
Jean if you feel this isnt appropiate i understand but i feel perhaps others might learn a thing or 2 from what my friend is going through trying to find a GOOD breeder and a puppy to love just as a pet.

dutchman

03-31-2001, 01:39 PM

Hi Jen,

Here is an ideas which for a new question I haven't seen on most list that I might ask a breader if I was looking today. "What do is your views of groups like C2CDR and DRNA and what do you do to support any local rescue efforts?" If they claim they are active with the rescue efforts or are involved in any other way with the rescue groups you can easily verify the information with rescue contact people in the area that are listed in the rescue group web pages. I've heard that while some good breeders look down their nose at rescue most really good ones look at rescue as another way to give back to the breed they love. I remember a photo of one dachshund adopted out from Hearts United in their newsletter. That dog was shown with it's companion dachshund. The companion was a former Best in Breed at Westminster still owned by a breeder. Now if I was ever in the market for a show dog that is one breeder I would consider contacting. Sorry I can't remember the name of the Breeder or dog.

When I lost Aggie last year and started looking at all alternatives for another companion there were three breeders with web sites that I contacted. When I e-mailed them to ask about upcoming litters or available older dogs I included a statement that I would be asking my rescue contacts to see if they could find out any information on the breeder since they would have all been long distance sources for a dog. I was open to pups, retired show dogs or dogs who had been kept as potential show animals who had not lived up to their expectations. I only heard back from one of the three breeders. One of those who didn't reply made a special point at their web site of promoting the number of championship dogs in their kennel. The one who did reply sent me another reply when I informed her that I had located Frank at a the local humane society and would not be looking further at that time. In that reply she congratulated me on helping to save a dog from the shelter and wished us a happy long life together. Even for a local breeder I would consider asking my rescue contacts if they had any knowledge of the particular breeder.

Good luck with the list.

Tom and the boys (Frank and Tanner)

This message has been edited by dutchman on March 31, 2001 at 02:59 PM

Cindi

03-31-2001, 04:20 PM

Jen,
Unfortunately, there are quite a few puppy mill owners (my definition of a puppy mill here) that belong to DCA. They also belong to NMDC. They may also belong to local dachshund clubs. There is nothing to be done about them at this time, which is one of the reasons I'm not that fond of the application process that exists. The local dachshund club SHOULD have some grasp on who to recommend but frequently, as you have found out, that doesn't happen either. As long as they are behaving to the minimum of the Code of Ethics in existence, there is nothing that can be done about them.
Would I recommend someone buy from such a place? No. If I found out one of my recommendations DID raise dogs that way they would be off the list.
Every breeder should require spay/neuter contracts on pets. A reputable breeder should also have in their contract first right of refusal should the new owner be unable to care for the dog...and that is at any time in that dog's life. And I'm sorry, but in my mind a reputable breeder would not be ABLE to say 'Check back in a few weeks and maybe we'll have what you want'. Anyone who can handle 2 litters well at one time is amazing in my mind and also very rare. Anyone who attempts more, in my opinion, is either nuts or in it for the money or both. I don't know of anyone who has done 2 litters that volunteers to do it again anytime soon!!

Susan63

03-31-2001, 04:30 PM

Jen,

This is VERY interesting!http://dachsie.org/ubb/smilies/smile.gif I ditto Carol's questions, and also agree with David's.

IMO, I feel that it is almost IMpossible to find a dog under every single EXPECTATION (example: Carol's list). That IS ideal of course, and those qualities are what I would want too. Here is an example: What if a good Breeder meets all but ONE or TWO of these important qualities? For instance, (1)Breeder sells pup at 8 weeks instead of 10-12? (2)Breeder has a larger-than-desired number of dogs? Ok, now let's take this SAME Breeder with the 2 "no-no's", AND add to this, the fact that this Breeder DOES socialize these dogs properly and these dogs are well cared for, AND this Breeder ALSO takes in RESCUES and houses them until a good home can be found?

This is the situation that I'm in right now. I'm currently interested in 2 local Breeders in my area. Both are active with RESCUES (although I do not know if C2CDR or DRNA knows of these Breeders, I WILL check into that. Glad David brought this up!).
BUT, they DO sell pups starting at 8 weeks, and have quite a few dogs (I don't mean 'Commercial Breeder' or anything like that). So there you go! These are the 2 "no-no's", BUT they DO stand behind their dogs, have a thorough CLEAR well-thought and planned SALES CONTRACT, with strict Spay/Neuter, HEALTH agreement.

I would just LOVE having another puppy, but at this time in my life I'm not too sure about that. I also do not feel like spending the $$$ for a Dachshund that I do not plan to show. I am considering a Rescue, or a Retiree ages 2-6.

I am going to drive to the closest Breeder near me and "feel them and their kennel out". If I see or feel red flags, I will leave.

Bottom line is, NOTHING is perfect. You go with your gut feelings.

~Susan~

dutchman

03-31-2001, 04:48 PM

Carol,

Thinking about your comments perhaps you could tell us what you think of the following idea. When you are planning on getting a dog from a breeder first print out a copy of either the C2CDR, DRNA, or HUA adoption form. I would think a good breeder would want to ask a prospective customer a lot of the same questions. If a breeder didn't want to ask at least a few of these questions I would start to think they didn't care what happens to the dogs and thus most likely didn't care about screening to help help prevent the passing of possible genetic defects.

Tom

This message has been edited by dutchman on March 31, 2001 at 05:51 PM

pkmiddler

03-31-2001, 05:49 PM

I have said some of these things before but I mostly agree with all that has been said here so far.But just because a bitch or dog is not a finished Champion means very little.Case in point.My Awful is not finished her sister has a Ch. inabout 7 or 8 countries.Awful has 10 points 1 major she went BOS at the Badger D.C. last March from the veteran class.Anyhow she gave me 2 litters total of 12 puppies she was a better producer than her sister,Brat her sister had 4 litters total of 13 puppies only 2 turned out to be show quality 1 finished.Awful's daughter Annie is not finished and she gave me 5 puppies all of which could have finished only 3 are shown 1 is Guy-Guy 1 is Redford(he needs 1 more point has 3 majors) and the female will be in Florida this week end showing.Also some kennels that have alot of dogs that do show have brood bitches that may or may not be be show quality by that I mean maybe their sister or brother is the GREAT ONE in the litter and this one could be finished but time or money puts the better of the litter out to be shown and the other one home to either wait till later or be bred and make maybe another GREAT ONE.Some breeders have what some people call (dead wood) you know the old ones some of us keep our old ones.I personally have 3 old ones and they will stay here till the day they die.Other people (place) them to make room for NEW show dogs.I knew of a person who bred good dogs but had 45 old ones.I would never get to that point my dogs live in my house on the couch this person had her whole 1st floor of her house with runs and cages total she had 75 or 80 dogs.Not my cup of tea but her dogs were well bred and healthy but as you said they get spookie caged all the time.There is a breeder in my state who wins big here with her dogs she has maybe 30 they all live in cages in the basement but she has lots of well bred winners.I say feel out the person you want to buy from go to shows talk to lots of other people shop around it will weed out the BREEDERS from the latest flavor in it breed.

~Jen~

03-31-2001, 05:59 PM

I agree with all that has been said about finding a good breeder and she has been going to shows this past year looking for a good breeder she has her name on 2 waitting lists because the waits on both are sooooo long for a puppy im ahead of her on the same waitting list and i have been waitting for 14mos so far and im still waitting but the breeder stays in contact w/me and lets me know he hasnt forgotten. The so called reputable breeder that im speaking about has about 100 BREEDING DOGS basically she takes her finished ch. most of which are males and breeds them to all her females some of which are horrible looking and she breeds her girls EVERY heat and freely admits it. I just dont see how someone like this could be a member of the parent club it makes NO sense http://dachsie.org/ubb/smilies/frown.gif

Jen

pkmiddler

03-31-2001, 08:06 PM

The person I was talking about is a DCA member and has been since somewhere around 1960 so maybe the person you are speeking about has been a DCA member a long time and if they bred more than 1 litter a year than add the fact that some of our guys can live 20 years then that is how some get alot of dogs I guess.I've been told you can not keep them all and if you do some of them do not get the life they need so who is right.

~Jen~

03-31-2001, 08:30 PM

I think that its only responsible for a breeder to place dogs that they are no longer using or retired (with a few exceptions) because there is no way that one person or one family for that matter can properly socialize and pay attention to 100 dachshunds and if you keep them all thats just what you'll get 100 dogs living outback in runs http://dachsie.org/ubb/smilies/frown.gif

Jen

Carol A. Smith

04-02-2001, 09:36 AM

I think common sense prevails over all, that and my gut feeling. I would not buy a puppy or dog from anyone that I did not feel comfortable with, I would not buy from someone who would not allow me to see/meet their dogs. I sure would not buy from anyone who has 100 dogs.. there is no way that someone with 100 dogs can socialize them, and to me that is the paramount thing. I don't want a spook for a dog. I have one, and he will stay with me until he dies, even though he is totally useless, and very unstable temperamentally. I got him before I knew better, from a lady who "appeared" to ba all right. But, in fact he came from a puppy mill producer, and she was a front for him. So, sometimes you can never tell.

I don't think dogs have to be champions to be good, Kaye makes a very good point about that. Some of the best ones never get shown, for lots of reasons.

I don't think I would compromise on what I have on my list, it seems to me that all of it is important. But, remember, for me, personality is first, conformation is second. Which is NOT to say I would buy a dog with a major fault. But, I sure won't ever again buy one with a bad personality. Or, one from a breeder who won't let me see and meet all the dogs, at some time or another.

I would expect the breeder to ask me a lot of questions, if they didn't know me. If someone we both knows gives me a reference, I would expect a little easier time of it. I know I feel better about folks if someone I know and trust tells me they are all right.

I agree that membership in DCA, NMDCA, or local dog clubs has absolutely NOTHING to do with being an honest, upstanding person, and I wouldn't give it much credence, without other good signs.

Its all about finding the dog that is right for you, and for your purposes. If you want a pet, then the conformation isn't an issue. If you want a show dog, then you have to be much more careful about the dog and the pedigree. Either way, no one wants a spook or a dog with genetic difficulties.

And, I think people who place their retired show dogs are often the best of folks. They know the dog will be better off in the home where it can be an only dog, a bed companion, and spoiled to death. This allows the breeder to continue to breed good ones to show, and not end up with the 50+ dogs Kaye speaks of... I have good friends who breed really nice dogs, and show them and field them, etc. But, all but two of the dogs live in cages 20+ hours a day. Not a life for a dog. Well cared for, well fed, vetted when needed, no expense spared. But, still caged... they would be so much better off if they were in a loving home. These folks don't think they are doing anything wrong for the dogs, but I do.

I've rambled enough for now. Interesting topic.

Carol

Cindi

04-02-2001, 11:56 AM

http://dachsie.org/ubb/smilies/jacks.gif Go Carol!!! I agree completely.
And it is so nice to finally have someone say that placing retired dogs is not 'throwing them away' but actually thinking more of the dog than we are of ourselves. On the few times I have placed retired dogs it has hurt our household...we miss them desperately but I always have felt they are better off in one or two dog homes than being here amongst 4 or 5 and only 2 or 3 of the competitors get to go places and training classes.

~Jen~

04-02-2001, 01:06 PM

I agree i think its commendable for a breeder to place retired dogs or dogs that they can not use in their breeding program in new forever homes. I mean really if you dont you would end up with the 100 dogs this person has http://dachsie.org/ubb/smilies/frown.gif I mean how many of us can have 100 dogs living in our house? I find it funny if you ask these ppl with ALL the 100 dogs about socialization they will say all their dogs are well socialized you have to wonder how that could possibly be? Anyone that says that breeders placing their dogs is throwing them away obviously has no idea what they are talking about!!

Great points http://dachsie.org/ubb/smilies/smile.gif
Jen

OwnedByChaucer

04-03-2001, 10:08 AM

My god, 100 dachshunds. I think I'd die. I have 2 of mine own, and 3 fosters right now and that feels like a lot, to make sure they all get lots of "mommy doggie" and "daddy doggie" time, one on one. I find myself walking dogs at midnight. *laughs*

I think placing retired show dogs is reflective of a very compassionate person who truly loves dogs. I can't imagine giving up a doggie that I'd had for so many years.........it must be hard.

As for the reputable breeder thing, after losing Chelsea Woolf (again, from someone that SEEMED okay, until the story started to unravel) I do understand the importance of it. That said, both my own dogs come from somewhat (or very) questionable sources.

Chaucer is a pet store dog--I knew better--but there was SOMETHING about him that I had to have him--and he is wonderful. And, I had no intention of getting a dog when I got him. Yeah, he comes from a mill in Missouri, and yeah, he may have genetic problems later in life--but you know what, whatever they are--even if they appeared tomorrow--wouldn't change how much he has given me in his short life so far. Would I buy a pet store dog again--no, lightning doesn't strike twice. But, something between me and him "connected" (I know, that sounds wierd) and I couldn't leave him there...

Gidget comes from a breeder, and a reasoably decent one. There are some no-nos, but they do show their dogs and they do handraise the pups. thing is, they do more than one kind of dog--each family member has his or her own breed--and this extends to the mom, dad, a teenage son and I think a few inlaws who are also involved with showing dogs. Doxies and English Bulldogs are what mom and dad do. Gidget was hand raised by the 15 year old son, and when we got her, he was ready to cry when we took her. And, she too is a good dog. She does have a flaw--an overbite, which the breeder was very upfront about telling us about. This breeder also let us talk to her vet, and let us have gidget on a "trial" basis and held our payment for 10 days so we could feel more comfortable, b/c she knew what we went through with Chelsea. ...

So, I think, if your radar is really up, and you aren't in a hurry, and you are looking for a pet quality animal...maybe the lines are a little fuzzier. It's a hard question though...

Dachshundrsq

04-08-2001, 05:50 PM

I think the puppy mills are getting somewhat smarter, they realize that people are now asking more questions and would quite frankly just walk away if they actually saw their breeding stock. So what you have to watch out for is those who have family and friends that they take a few of their dogs to (usually the sire, dam and the litter of pups that may or may not belong to these dogs) Then when potential puppy owners come to see the pups, they get to see mom and dad in a nice home with only this litter of pups....it all looks nice. I have seen people who used to show years ago and they post these pictures of their dogs on their website and they say now they just stay home and spoil the puppies... ALL 300 of them?? NOT! Then again you take this person who does show and does have 100 dogs and openly shows these dogs to someone, obviously not hiding what they have.....although I do not agree with having this many dogs, they do usually have hired kennel help to care for these dogs and help socialize them. The dog that spins can easily be a dog who spends a great deal of time in their crate. This can also be a Champion dog, which are crated a great deal of time while at shows, in fact other than x-pen breaks to go to the bathroom, maybe 10 minutes or less if they know how to potty on cue, then they are back in their crate. Obviously a dog who spends too much time in their crate, but not an unsocialized dog, not a poor conformation dog. As far as people who own obvious mills and still belonging to the parent club, I have heard many excuses as to why they still belong to the parent club and the #1 reason is the club doesn't want to be sued by these individuals because they kicked them out! What their hope is that eventually these people will get out of the business of dogs and have no reason to keep up membership in the parent clubs......this rarely happens. I know of a few that have been breeding for 40+ years, are still members of the club well into their 70's, can't really get around anymore, send dogs out with handlers and have 100 dogs that well who knows if they are being cared for. Another thing is those who do hire help for their kennels may not realize that their dogs are being mistreated by their hired help, probably not a high paying job, so it wouldn't pull in the most respectable members in the community. Some may realize it but due to the lack of finding someone else, they use this person anyway because, well they are there and available. Not making any excuses for these people, because it is their job to know and if it cost them a show weekend to make changes then that is what needs to be done. I know of one place that had 350 dachshunds and 500 dogs of other breeds at her place. AKC inspected her and her kennel passed inspection...how can that be? Because her records were up to date and her kennels were clean. The dogs smelled to high heaven, they were obviously NOT socialized, many had obvious signs of mistreatment, etc. Bottom line is AKC is the dog licensing branch and they could care less about the condition of the dogs. As long as the papers are in order and they meet the minium requirements for space in kennels, etc. that is the extent of AKC's involvement in the Breeding industry. The USDA doesn't care because they see dogs as Livestock, The only ones who care are the SPCA who cannot handle the dogs if they pulled them out and us, those who love dogs as members of their family, help with rescue, are small hobby breeders....etc. Somewhere, Somehow and Someway, there needs to be changes. Until then they still exist.

Snorodent

04-09-2001, 08:47 AM

I recently purchased a Dachshund puppy and I was darned if I as going to get another pet store puppy mill dog. My Puppy mill "rescue" Lhasa is 30 pounds folks, (hes the size of a cocker spaniel - oh wait maybe he IS a cocker spaniel, who the heck knows!) has a crooked face and other health problems. Puppy mills are BAD news!!!

I began my search for my Dachsie and contacted all the breeders I could find. Id say probably about 30-40 over the US. I classified their emails back to me and web sites into three groups --- Show quaility breeders, Back Yard Breeders and Puppy Mills. Of Course all based on my own research.

I weeded out the later two, and got down to just show quality breeders and started grilling them. I highly reccomend this. One woman was going to ship me a puppy then she slipped and told me the mother of the pup was about 9 months old. UM HELLO! thats pretty darn young!

So off the list she went. Then I had another woman contact me, and I asked for pictures. Her Dachsies all looked like Long eared Chihuahuas, so off the list she went - confirmation was obviously not important, so who knew what else wasnt.

I had my heart set on a smooth dapple, but I kept coming back to this one breeder - who only bred about once every three years only to produce show dogs. She didn't even let her pups go until 11 weeks so she could check them for confirmation. I liked her emails, they were very intelligent, (if a breeder sounds like trash she may very well be, keep this in mind) and answered all my questions. She sent me pictures of the parents and told me about her puppies personality. So even though I wanted a smooth, I compromized and got a long haired more for the quality of the animal than the looks.
When I got there, I got asked questions, and was treated to contracts to sign for spaying and limited Registration. She did not Jack up the price for me, her price was FAIR, $500.00. The few puppies were emmaculate as were its living quarters. They were all very social, healthy looking and interacted with adult dogs well in a family group setting. They were let outside alot and were partially paper trained. I got to keep a picture of parents and shot records.

The hint to finding the perfect puppy is research research! Don't let your heart take over like I did with my first dog , now three years old. If you have your heart set on a certain pup, remind yourself color and coat arent everything! Quality is. In the long run your dog will be healthier, social, and maybe even smarter! Watch out for dogs that dont even look like Dachsies because I have seen them! Look at the standard and don't get a dog that looks like a Mini Beagle or Chihuahua because chances are if they didnt take the effort to breed correct looking pups, the health quality isnt there either.

Just a hint sorry so long..

Stacy

Susan63

04-10-2001, 03:49 AM

Bravo! Sounds like you really did your homework!http://dachsie.org/ubb/smilies/smile.gif

Frzframe

04-10-2001, 01:10 PM

I know most of you will not like this but I will not buy from a breeder that has a spay contract in order to get full registration. I feel it is my right to decide if I am going to breed or not. I am a responsible pet owner and feel that if the person I buy my dog from doesn't want me to breed and sell the puppies then they shouldn't either.
~Shonda

Cindi

04-10-2001, 04:59 PM

Shonda,
It doesn't bother me that you have that attitude about not wanting to spay/neuter a pet puppy. However, you also would not be getting one of my darlings for that reason so it works out quite well. I don't have to worry about one of my grandchildren (When you would have puppies you don't know how to ask the right questions, require the right contracts and obviously don't care to) ending up in a sleazy place when I require spay/neuter contracts. I don't raise a litter specifically to sell pet puppies. I breed and raise a litter for myself and if there are pet puppies those puppies get to go to homes where they will be loved and cherished as a companion animal in a house with 1 or 2 dogs only. I have NEVER had one person not commit to the spay/neuter contract...ever. I have a litter maybe 18-24 months apart. Those people who do not want to spay/neuter can go to any number of puppy mill/BYB who do not work to improve, do not keep puppies until they are independent enough to leave, have at least 2 shots in their puppies, have a required-to-return policy, etc.
So you see, your attitude doesn't bother me because you wouldn't want one of my children.

~Jen~

04-10-2001, 06:53 PM

Obviously you dont know too many reputable breeders and the time, energy and effort that goes into their breeding progam. Why on earth would a breeder go through all the trouble of making sure breeding stock is of good quality and thake the time to show it or whatever they choose to do with their dogs only to turn their puppy's over for you to make good on all their work and then turn around and sell all their pups on full registraion that makes no sense. Spay/Neuter agreements ensure that a reputable breeders pups get to spend their whole lives as loved members of a family because a fixed dog is no good to a byb or a miller.

JMO
Jen

PS No reputable breeder wants their kennel name spread around on every pedigree which is just what will happen if they sold pup on full registration.

This message has been edited by ~Jen~ on April 10, 2001 at 07:57 PM

Frzframe

04-11-2001, 11:44 AM

How unfair of you to judge me like that. How do you know what or how I would do things. I love my animals very bit as much as you do yours and would never ever do anything to harm them or (if they had any) their puppies. Just one more question where did you 1st buy your dogs to get started? You never know I may be just like you.
~Shonda
PS Just to let you know I did get Mitzi spayed. <IMG SRC="http://dachsie.org/ubb/cwmsmilies/cwm26.gif" border=0>

This message has been edited by Frzframe on April 11, 2001 at 12:48 PM

pkmiddler

04-11-2001, 09:14 PM

Cindi and Jen glad you did all my work on this one while I was gone for 4 days.I do not put ads in the paper for my puppies because of this kind of person.No contract No dog.I even think holding papers does not help with some people they will just breed and make more cute puppies to give to friends or family. They will say we do not need papers to LOVE our dog and breed to the dog down the street or someone who will breed to a unregestered dog.That is where so many of our rescue dogs come from.The "I just want to have 1 litter from poo-poo people"or the "kids need to see birth"people there are to many people that do not want to be told what they can do that are doing all dogs a injustice by breeding that 1 or 2 litters.But when I get a call for a puppy and I do not know of any well bred puppies at that time the person will say "well how am I supposed to buy from a breeder if you people only breed a few litters a year" These people can go elsewhere since they do not care for this breed the way I do.I had 1 litter of 5 2 1/2 years ago and 3 pups now and I may pass up breeding Sallie in July since I NEED to find ONLY the RIGHT people to own 1 of my babies.By the way a CONTRACT can be a life saver if it goes to COURT inorder to save a dog from a POOR LIFE I have done it and if I had to would do it again!!!! Please sign here!!!!!<IMG SRC="http://dachsie.org/ubb/cwmsmilies/cwm23.gif" border=0>

This message has been edited by pkmiddler on April 11, 2001 at 10:17 PM

Susan63

04-12-2001, 04:12 AM

Shonda,

I understand what you're thinking, but, the truth of the matter (and MAIN concern) is to PROTECT the puppers.

I'm sure you mean well, but look at it this way; there are people out there that do NOT alter their pets for whatever reason. A LOT of these UNaltered dogs are placed in a newspaper ad "Free to good home". The BYB's and PMillers take FULL advantage of this unfortunately.<IMG SRC="http://dachsie.org/ubb/cwmsmilies/cwm23.gif" border=0>

Another thing, too many UNaltered dogs escape and pretty soon you've got unplanned puppies coming.

A LOT of people ARE responsible, but also A LOT are NOT.

The main reason for spay/neuter contracts is to protect the dogs. An ounce of prevention goes a long way!http://dachsie.org/ubb/smilies/smile.gif In this day and age in our SICK world, it SHOULD just be automatic for PET quality dogs.

Ok, I'll shut up now!<IMG SRC="http://dachsie.org/ubb/cwmsmilies/cwm9.gif" border=0>

~Susan~

Frzframe

04-12-2001, 09:22 AM

I understand what you are trying to say but I don't think you understand what I am trying to say. So I'll try again what if (and this is a big if) I want to get into what you all do and breed champion dogs? You all had to start somewhere right? What if the person you bought your dogs from had that contract? Where would you be today? I agree that if a dog is only pet material then spay it and since that is what you sell your non champions I wouldn't want to breed them anyway because I would want to breed top notch dogs not dogs that you all pass up and sell for pets. Right? By the way how did you all get into the business of breeding and showing dogs? This is the first dog I've ever owned myself and I have learn a lot already but am willing to put in my time and learn all I can to see if showing and breeding are in my future. I don't know the answer just yet but Mitzi is teaching a lot by just being my pet. I had hoped to learn things here from you but you have closed minds and think I'm a backyard breeder when I've never even had a single puppy. I have friends who own kennels who only sell pets and if I was like you think I am I wouldn't bother to come to this board for help and information. But I'm not I'm trying to glean all I can before making a informed and intelligent decision as to my life. I hope this helps you all understand where I am coming from and I don't mean anything against any of you I just want to learn and understand.
~Shonda

~Jen~

04-12-2001, 10:06 AM

Shonda i didnt mean for it to sound like i was calling YOU a byb i just ment the situation and the way you worded your 1st post sounded like you just wouldnt buy a dog if someone told you what to do with it. Most of the time (im just learning this myself) if a reputable breeder sell's to a person looking into getting into breeding/showing etc. they take the time to get to know the person VERY WELL and/or they co-own the dog with them at least til the dog is finished its chamionship then sometimes they will sign over all rights. Most breeders of show quality dogs just dont want to sell their show dogs and have to worry about them just sitting in someone's house not being shown (after all the breeders intention was to make dogs that were well conformed enough to compete in the ring) because the person that bought them THOUGHT they wanted to show then changed their mind. If they co-own the dog the breeder can make sure that dog is shown.. no matter what the new owner decides.
If you want to get into showing and breeding champions i suggest that you talk one on one with some show breeders and learn all you can about the sport http://dachsie.org/ubb/smilies/smile.gif

Good Luck
Jen

Frzframe

04-12-2001, 10:28 AM

Jen,
Now that is information I can use THANK YOU! I didn't have a clue that breeders would even consider co-owning a dog. I will do just as you say and look into this. Thanks. One other question, how can I find out about prior champion dogs? I have Mitzi's six generation pedigree and it shows that she does have some grandparents (5th and 6th generation)that where show dogs. I would like to know more about them. Is there any other way to find out about these dogs other then buying their records from AKC?
~Shonda

~Jen~

04-12-2001, 01:28 PM

If you want to email me privately with the names of the ch.'s on the pedigree i can see if i can recognize the kennel... if i can then you can contact them im sure they would be more than happy to tell you about their dogs i also have some friends that have been into mini.'s for years so i can ask them if im not familar with the names. Other than that you can do a search for the name on a search engine. You may also want to contact your breeder and see if he/she knows anything about the kennel's where those dogs came from. You might also want to invest in buying the dogs records from the AKC i just did that on a few of the dogs that appear in serv. of my pedigree's i bought their 5gen pedigree's from akc's online store for $10 each i found out somethings about my dogs lines that i hadnt known before mostly for the good. Thank goodness http://dachsie.org/ubb/smilies/smile.gif

Drop me a email i might have some of the same dogs in my dogs lines.. you never know http://dachsie.org/ubb/smilies/smile.gif

Jen
PS Some pedigree services can supply you with multi-generation ped's for cheaper if you buy more than 1 http://dachsie.org/ubb/smilies/smile.gif

This message has been edited by ~Jen~ on April 12, 2001 at 02:31 PM

Susan63

04-12-2001, 04:59 PM

Shonda,

I didn't know that you were interested in Breeding/Showing. Sorry. If you had mentioned this before, then we would have understood.http://dachsie.org/ubb/smilies/smile.gif

IMO, if a person intends to Breed/Show their dog, then they should have obtained their dog from a reputable Breeder in the first place, with a MUTUAL understanding of what the plans are. If it is agreed upon, then the Breeder should release a FULL Registration at the time of the sale. Breeders have their reasons for a limited/full Reg. But this needs to be communicated with both party's at the time of the sale.

I'm glad that the AKC now has an online Pedigree Service! I too obtained Freddie's extended Pedigree and learned more. He has more CH.'s, but of course they're way back - Great, Great-Great. I was pleasantly surprised to see some well-known names on there, as well as known Kennels.
I ALSO saw Freddie's Sire's DNA Profile #, as well as his Sire and Dam's Breeders names.

BELIEVE me, I have learned more since I got Freddie. I got Freddie from a local Breeder here in town, from an AD in the newspaper!<IMG SRC="http://dachsie.org/ubb/cwmsmilies/cwm25.gif" border=0> I was naive then. Now I knew that his Breeder was NOT reputable, and had only 8 years of experience in breeding Dachshunds (she had bred another breed previously). She sold Freddie to me WITHOUT a contract and/or Spay/Neuter agreement! Like I said, I was naive!<IMG SRC="http://dachsie.org/ubb/cwmsmilies/cwm9.gif" border=0> I had him neutered anyway.
That was the only "red flag" about his Breeder. Everything else was fine. His Dam was there with him, I saw a pic of his Sire, and so forth. ONE good point about his Breeder is, she stresses that she WILL take back the pup at ANY time. I do not think she knows her dogs Pedigrees well enough however. I called her with questions about Kennels on Freddie's Pedigree, and she didn't have a clue!http://dachsie.org/ubb/smilies/mad.gif I truly think that I know MORE than she does about his Lineage!
Even though she is not a "serious" Breeder, I do know that she is NOT a BYB. BUT, I would NOT go back to her. I don't care for her now.

Anyway Shonda, if you're serious, I would first check out your dog's Pedigree online from AKC. That will give you an idea. Then, get a mentor, go to Shows, talk with Breeders, and so forth. *First thing* you want to do before breeding is find out ANY genetic faults/back problems.

Even though Freddie is neutered, I'd still like to find out as much as possible about his "Family Tree" just for fun!http://dachsie.org/ubb/smilies/smile.gif But that's NOT easy, especially since his Breeder is NOT informed.http://dachsie.org/ubb/smilies/frown.gif

Oh, BTW, I don't have Breeding/Showing background. Never have done it. I think on this Board, only a handful of folks have experience. You mentioned in your last post "you all". Just to clarify this, that we're not.http://dachsie.org/ubb/smilies/smile.gif

One last note, we don't have "closed minds". We are just sensitive about this. We're all too familiar of the serious homeless/unwanted pet population, and just HOW dogs end up with BYB's and Millers. It just takes education. I can't believe just how much I've learned in the past 2 years! You never stop learning.

~Susan~

Cindi

04-12-2001, 07:47 PM

Susan,
Sorry, but I can't go along with your logic. Contracts are good but only as good as the people that sign them. Therefore, very few reputable show breeders are going to give full registration papers without co-owning to a novice. The reasons are many but once the breeder signs off the papers there is no recourse if the new owner decides to stud or breed that dog without living up to the contract. And AKC does not get involved in such things. If the dog/bitch is owned outright, they are out of it regardless of any contract. Many people say they want to show but the reality of it usually burns them out very quickly. It is very time consuming, it can be expensive, there's only a few winners at each show and with professional handlers out there it frequently is not evenly shared amongst the owner handlers [I'm not saying we don't win our share but it can run in streaks for you or against you http://dachsie.org/ubb/smilies/smile.gif], the training sometimes takes longer than one thinks it should, the grooming involved sometimes escapes the novice, and the list can go on and on.

Susan63

04-12-2001, 08:02 PM

Cindi,

I understand what you're saying now. See, I'm still learning!http://dachsie.org/ubb/smilies/smile.gif LOL

I know that AKC does not get involved with that. I was just pointing out that you can now obtain pedigree info online.

Heck, I've just learned recently that AKC registers PM dogs! I wasn't happy in finding that out.http://dachsie.org/ubb/smilies/mad.gif So, in reality, the dogs listed on pedigrees may in fact NOT be who they are. On 'Dateline' a while back this was pointed out. That is what's so sad, the AKC is not what it's all cracked up to be.

What do you personally think about the AKC?

~Susan~

pkmiddler

04-13-2001, 06:17 AM

Ask Jen about how breeders keep hold on their bloodlines and safegard the breed.I help alot of novice people of all coats and sizes and can do pedigree work I have maybe 8000 books going back to the "50's" and pedigrees and stud books.But as we have all said we as breeders have to keep this breed safe all of us have had a person come to us at least 1 time that just wanted to buy a dog from us to breed to make money.I had one say she wanted to put her kids thru collage by selling puppies so we do get on the mucele when it comes to our breed.We want to stop the PM AND BYB breeders and keep the Doxie safe in wonderful pet homes forever when not being shown and bred by someone who cares for the dog and the breed.

Cindi

04-13-2001, 01:18 PM

Susan,
Unfortunately, AKC is just a registry and they do the best that they can. They are NOT a policing agency, they are not set up to be such. So, here we are at the crux again...the paperwork is only as good as the people that do it starting with the breeders. I was told a LONG time ago by a well known handler/breeder that it was common to use dogs to breed from and use someone else's papers to register the litters. Sad but true.
And, if I was unethical it would be very possible for me to register a litter of dachshunds as Great Danes. The papers are available to be had for a price so....that is why we are so rabid about protecting the breed.
Kay, I ENVY you. Nancy T and I used to spend hours researching pedigrees at the OSU library. All those books <IMG SRC="http://dachsie.org/ubb/cwmsmilies/cwm38.gif" border=0> what I wouldn't give to have those....

jenmilo

05-14-2001, 06:19 PM

All of the information I have read on this post has been great. I have had Dachshund's for 20 years now. I have my first litter born two weeks ago. All of the pups will leave with spay/nuter contacts, health guarentees, and I get the pup back if they can no longer take care of the pup. The new owners have to provide me with all kinds of information regarding the new dog, previouse dogs, current dogs, kids, home and stuff like that. My pups don't get to go to just any home. I do not want to tell somebody if they can or can not breed a dog, but if they do then I will be on as a co-owner. I want to make sure those dogs are taken care of as well. Most of my new litter are Dapples and I want to make sure that somebody dose not breed another Dapple with one of these Dapples. I alread turned on person down because they wanted to breed thier Dapple with one of my pups. My dogs are starting to be shown in the ring and hopfully earthdog trials. I will admit their are more things I need to do to be even a better breeder, but I think I am on the right track. I have two good dogs that I believe repersent the breed very well. They just have to prove that in the ring. I am also keeping one of the pups for show as well. Thank you to all of you for your exclent info and thanks to Jen for posting a great question. If anyone wants to see the new litter just look in the brag book.