Conflicting Descriptions of Chocolate Color

[Trixies Mom]

I am new to breeding and just had my first litter of piebald puppies. One of the puppies is a dark reddish color with tan markings and a liver nose with no black pigment anywhere. Her base color is definitely not a Hershey brown color. Because she has tan markings, would she be considered chocolate/tan? One breeder said she would be an e-factor (dilution??) red, but the pictures I've seen of those dogs do not have tan points.

The dam of these puppies is a blk pie and has full siblings that are chocolate (deep Hershey brown with liver nose). The sire is a red pie with a blue&tan grandsire and chocolate great-grandsire.

I have another puppy that is a deep Hershey brown chocolate and it appears that he is going to have a black nose (they're only a week old now). I have read conflicting information - one source said that a true chocolate will have the liver nose,nails,etc and the other said that a black nose, nails is preferred, but that most have liver. I'm getting very frustrated because I don't want to misrepresent these puppies, yet I'm constantly finding conflicting information.

Can anyone shed any light on this for me? Is there a definitive definition that the AKC supports? I can send pictures if anyone would like them.

THANKS!!!

[Cindi]

First genetics. Chocolate and tan cannot have black anything!!! Chocolate is recessive to black and tan and can NOT have anything black on them be it nose, hair, pads etc. (That statement about black being preferred has caused lots of controversy because it isn't possible <g>).
Although hershey brown is preferred chocolates range from cafe au lait all the way to hershey. I don't know how old this particular puppy is but I would give it time to either lose the tan points (turning red) or darken the body color so that you can be sure. Many red dogs do appear to have tan points as babies but they disappear as the puppy color changes. I've seen some reds that you can watch the tan points (they really aren't tan points)'grow' ie looks as if it is sliding towards the tail <g>.
Your dam, black and tan pie would be the correct color I believe obviously carries the chocolate gene since one puppy IS chocolate and tan but he cannot have anything black. Does he have tan points? If not, you might find that the color clears out to red.
Unfortunately, breeding a red dog that might carry chocolate to another dog that might carry chocolate can result in puppies that are NOT e reds but reds with the chocolate pigment (although e-reds are also the same description physically their genotype is different and usually are the 'surprise' result in a bl/tn X bl/tn who both carry the gene). This pigment combination is not desirable because reds are 'preferred to have black pigment'.
Oops, I just reread and saw that you said a week old. Patience http://dachsie.org/ubb/smilies/smile.gif Let their colors settle down and pigment sometimes takes a while to develop although it drives us nuts. I would be very interested to hear what colors they are at 4 weeks of age.

Cindi

[Trixies Mom]

Thanks for the info, Cindi. I will try to be patient and see what happens with the color of these pups. I'll send you some photos when the pups are 4 weeks and see what you think.

Please forgive my incessant questions, but I am curious about a couple more things. First, am I correct in my understanding that the e-factor gene is the same as the dilution gene and not related to the chocolate base color? And is an e red the result of a dilution gene being passed from both parents? If so, I think it is likely that my reddish female puppy is NOT an e red, but rather a red carrying chocolate (unless her tan markings don't fade in which case she's chocolate) because I don't see any diluted colors in my dam's pedigree. The sire's grandsire was blue & tan, so he may carry the dilution gene. There is also a chance of chocolate on the sire's side, but it is several generations back. However, there is a high likelihood of a chocolate recessive on the dam's side since some of her full siblings have been chocolate. Is this logical reasoning? Unfortunately, it seems like the dilution gene muddies the water when you're interested in chocolate.

Do all reds carrying chocolate have a liver nose? (that would be too easy, I'm sure!)

Thanks again for all your help!

[Dachsaholic]

Originally posted by Cindi:
First genetics. Chocolate and tan cannot have black anything!!! Chocolate is recessive to black and tan and can NOT have anything black on them be it nose, hair, pads etc. (That statement about black being preferred has caused lots of controversy because it isn't possible <g>).
Although hershey brown is preferred chocolates range from cafe au lait all the way to hershey. I don't know how old this particular puppy is but I would give it time to either lose the tan points (turning red) or darken the body color so that you can be sure. Many red dogs do appear to have tan points as babies but they disappear as the puppy color changes. I've seen some reds that you can watch the tan points (they really aren't tan points)'grow' ie looks as if it is sliding towards the tail <g>.
Your dam, black and tan pie would be the correct color I believe obviously carries the chocolate gene since one puppy IS chocolate and tan but he cannot have anything black. Does he have tan points? If not, you might find that the color clears out to red.
Unfortunately, breeding a red dog that might carry chocolate to another dog that might carry chocolate can result in puppies that are NOT e reds but reds with the chocolate pigment (although e-reds are also the same description physically their genotype is different and usually are the 'surprise' result in a bl/tn X bl/tn who both carry the gene). This pigment combination is not desirable because reds are 'preferred to have black pigment'.
Oops, I just reread and saw that you said a week old. Patience http://dachsie.org/ubb/smilies/smile.gif Let their colors settle down and pigment sometimes takes a while to develop although it drives us nuts. I would be very interested to hear what colors they are at 4 weeks of age.

Cindi

I didn't think it was possible either, but I've seen it happen! Do you mean TWO chocolates can't have anything black and tan or that if either parent is chocolate then none of the babies can be chocolate? Because a breeder friend of mine bred a chocolate and tan dapple long female to a black and tan dapple long male and they had a litter of black and tan dapple (no doubles) puppies.

http://dachsie.org/ubb/smilies/huh.gif http://dachsie.org/ubb/smilies/um.gif http://dachsie.org/ubb/smilies/wow.gif http://dachsie.org/ubb/smilies/think.gif

Now lemmie think... Not sure if I've ever seen two chocolates have somethink with black on it.... Hmmm.... (thinking) I dunno. If I think of any times that's happened I'll post it on here. http://dachsie.org/ubb/smilies/smile.gif



------------------
~ Lyn

[Mandy]

A chocolate dog cannot have black on their body...no black nails, no black nose, no black whiskers, etc.

A blk/tan x choc/tan could very well have blak/tan puppies. They puppies could receive the blk allele from one parent and the choc allele from the other parent....and the puppy would be blk/tan, carrying choc.

[Cindi]

Lyn, Mandy answered your question about the b/t x b/t or c/t x b/t. c/t x c/t should only produce c/t's or maybe some weird dilute if they are carrying those recessive.
c/t's do not and cannot carry the black gene for anything because their color is recessive to black so they are only carrying the genes for brown anything.
The e-reds are called that because their color is due to the 'e' locus. It has nothing to do with the dilution gene which is the D locus (and then of course there is the c'ch' gene <g>). The E gene has to do with mask expression (or repression of any dark) with 4 alleles: E'm' (super extension mask - which would not show up on a solid color dog but the puppies, if not solid dark, would show mask), E (solid coat color) e'br' - brindle (partial extension of mask) and e -restriction (no dark pigment be it black or liver possible)equalling a red-yellow dog. e-reds are therefore black and tan dogs with the fullest restriction of expression of black ie none. They can vary in depth of the red color.
It is possible to have a dog that is a't'a't' (tan points)ee (restriction of dark hairs) = red dog with lighter red/tan points http://dachsie.org/ubb/smilies/smile.gif
Dilution gene would most likely be involved with the blue/tans, isabella/tans so I believe from your pedigree there is a slight chance of that playing a role.
It's going to be a wait and see game I think!

[Trixies Mom]

Originally posted by Cindi:
The e-reds are called that because their color is due to the 'e' locus. It has nothing to do with the dilution gene which is the D locus (and then of course there is the c'ch' gene <g>). The E gene has to do with mask expression (or repression of any dark) with 4 alleles: E'm' (super extension mask - which would not show up on a solid color dog but the puppies, if not solid dark, would show mask), E (solid coat color) e'br' - brindle (partial extension of mask) and e -restriction (no dark pigment be it black or liver possible)equalling a red-yellow dog. e-reds are therefore black and tan dogs with the fullest restriction of expression of black ie none. They can vary in depth of the red color.
It is possible to have a dog that is a't'a't' (tan points)ee (restriction of dark hairs) = red dog with lighter red/tan points http://dachsie.org/ubb/smilies/smile.gif
Dilution gene would most likely be involved with the blue/tans, isabella/tans so I believe from your pedigree there is a slight chance of that playing a role.
It's going to be a wait and see game I think!

http://dachsie.org/ubb/smilies/dizzy.gif This is going to take a while to digest. Is there a book that you can recommend for color genetics that starts with the basics? Regardless, if I'm still not sure about color when my puppies are 4 weeks old, I'll post the photos. http://dachsie.org/ubb/smilies/smile.gif

[~Jen~]

I was lucky enough to see some pics of the pups... they are really cute.
Looks like she has 3 blk/tan pies and 2 red pies - 1 w/possibly a liver nose but very red pigmented unless the pictures are off in color.

You can refer to the book "The Complete Dachshund" by Bruce and Dee Hutchinson
Thats the most basic one i know of to recommend that has genetic information on the different genes http://dachsie.org/ubb/smilies/smile.gif


http://dachsie.org/ubb/smilies/smile.gif

Jen