biting

[Timber]

Timber bites a lot. I don't know if he doesn't want to be held or what, but he really shows his teeth! What can I do to stop this? He hasn't been doing this very long.

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Tiffany
Junior Handler

[Wienergal]

Tiffany, a few questions before we all begin pelting you with advice:
How old is Timber now?
When did he start doing this? Does he bite at any other time?
When you say, "bites," what do you mean, exactly? Is he chewing on you, or is it a threatening gesture--baring his teeth first, then actually nipping at you?

A little more info, please, and then we'll tackle the problem!

[Timber]

Timber is 7 and a half months. He doesn't chew-he bares teeth and bites, sometimes hard. Sometimes when I try to stack him to practice for the jr ring, and I hold his muzzle loosely to keep his head, he will move his head about and bite if you don't let go. He'll bite you afterward,too. It is definately more thana nip!

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Tiffany
Junior Handler

[Wienergal]

Okay! We've got a problem here! Timber is 7 months old--he's moving into his "adolescence," which means he's testing his limits and seeing whether he can become the dominant presence in your "pack." It's time for you and your parents to make it very clear to the little guy that he is 'WAY down the ladder--YOU are in charge, not Timber!

How have you been responding when he snaps at you? There have been some long discussions on the board about this very issue. One recommended response is to grab him by the scruff of the neck, flip him onto his back, and in the lowest, growliest voice you can manage, tell him, "NO!" Hold him there until HE looks away. It's very important that Timber breaks eye contact first--that's a sign of submission in a dog.

From now on, Timber must be submissive to you in everything, until he remembers his place in the pack. Put a leash on him when he's in the house and every once in a while, when you are within reach of the end of the leash, tell him to come. If he doesn't, take the end of the leash and give it a few jerks to get him moving in your direction. When he gets to you, he must SIT.

He must sit before he gets fed. He must sit before he gets a treat. He must sit before he gets petted. When you leave the house, put his leash on him before you open the door. When you open the door, YOU go out first; Timber follows.

While you are doing all these things, try not to let your voice sound angry. Your voice should be calm, low, and firm. Anger will just excite his instinct to challenge you; by keeping your voice low and calm, you will be sending him a message that YOU are in charge and you're not kidding!

I'm sure others will have advice too, Tiff, but don't wait to get going on this behavior modification! Timber should NOT be biting you--you need to get this under control NOW!!!

Good luck!

Pamela

[Mark]

Hi Tiff,

Pamela is absolutely right. At that age Timber is trying to see if he can be the alpha of the pack. It's important he not be allowed to think that for a second . . . that's when the problems can escalate.

If all else fails when he bares his teeth & bites, use the "chin bop" (or "uppercut"). Make a fist and with the fleshy circle created by your forefinger, strike an upward blow to the chin (lower jaw) hard enough to "clack" his teeth together . . . simultaneously with the command, "no". The uppercut should be limited to aggressive behaviour and does not hurt them . . . but it sure does put them in their place.

All that Pamela said is very sound advice and yes, as she says, you must get it under control now.

Keep us posted,
Mark

[wireweiners]

Yes, Tiff, Timber is now a teenager and has decided he is old enough to do what he wants, knows everything there is to know, and you just "don't understand." <IMG SRC="http://dachsie.org/ubb/cwmsmilies/cwm42.gif" border=0> The chin bops are good. I don't recommend trying to flip him over in an alpha roll. What I have found works better is to grab them by the loose skin under each ear, pick their front feet off the ground and give them a chewing out in a low growly voice while maintaining eye contact until they look away.

One tip, you said that he didn't like it when you held his muzzle while stacking him. At 7 months he is still teething and his gums may be sore. Whopper didn't like his muzzle held then either. Instead of holding his muzzle, put your thumb and forefinger under his jaw where his jaws join onto his neck (the wide part of the "V"). You can hold his head up without putting pressure on his tender gums. Also it looks better to a judge than holding a dog by his muzzle. You can also fit the show lead right under his ears to hold his head up. A clicker and treats can also be used to teach him to hold his head up. Wheeler learned to "stand pretty" this way. I can tell him to stand pretty and he stacks himself and cocks his head to say "Ain't I cute, Judge?" <IMG SRC="http://dachsie.org/ubb/cwmsmilies/cwm12.gif" border=0> <IMG SRC="http://dachsie.org/ubb/cwmsmilies/cwm12.gif" border=0>

<FONT COLOR="#00FFFF" SIZE="1" FACE="Verdana, Arial">This message has been edited by wireweiners on January 23, 2001 at 02:40 PM</font>

[dutchman]

Yep a challenge for position and it is very important that Timber learns his place. My trainer opposes both the alpha roll and many of the other common techniques including the one described by wireweiners. She is big on the chin bop but reserve it only for aggressive behavior. She is very well known for her ability to work with aggressive dogs of all ages. She has a PH.D. in psychology and has published books and written articles for some of the major dog magazines. She has seen dogs that people have tried the stare down approach with and if the person even blinks the dog may consider itself the winner. She has observed dogs who will stare for 5-15 minutes w/o blinking are you prepared to do that? The method she oppose more than anything else is a timeout. The timeout just won't work with a dog. They may settle down but they never associate the timeout with the activity that lead up to it.

If you haven't already taken an obedience class try to get into one. If you have completed a class ask the trainer you worked with for some suggestions. Most good trainers don't mind answering questions for past students.

Wireweiners advice about hand placement sounds good to me. I don't show dogs and most likely never will so I don't attempt to give advice on show ring procedures.

Good luck,

Tom and the boys (Frank and Tanner)

<FONT COLOR="#00FFFF" SIZE="1" FACE="Verdana, Arial">This message has been edited by dutchman on January 23, 2001 at 03:38 PM</font>

[Wienergal]

Tom, does your trainer have any ideas for correction other than the chin bop? I frankly would not want my child putting her hand so close to the mouth of a dog who has clearly indicated he is ready to bite!

I know there are lots of ways to correct aggression. For small dogs, I have found the alpha roll to work extremely well, but it also depends upon how aggressive they are. A small dog who is testing will probably respond well to it--at least that has been true in my experience. An older dog, whose behavior is already habitual, may not. But since Timber's a baby, I think it could work as well for him as it did with Arnold.

[Mark]

IMO there are many ways to discipline a dog that misbehaves. Aggression, however, limits the effective methods available. Whenever they confront the hooman alpha . . . it must end in the dog knowing they lost. I believe that is why the uppercut is so effective and should only be used in confrontational/aggressive situations. Yes, for just stubbornness I outstare ours (and sometimes, as Mary suggests, grabbing the loose skin behind the ears while chewing them out in a low dominating voice) until they blink or look away . . . the dispute is over and I win. But for growling and/or biting toward me . . . they get their chin bopped. They cease immediately and then spend time trying to kiss-up to me. It doesn't happen often anymore, but with 2 very dominant dogs in our 3 pack . . . it does happen. I also like the alpha roll, but use it as reinforcement rather than the fix.

Certainly, given Timber's age, there is no harm in trying the staring and the alpha roll prior to going to the uppercut. Tiff is very mature and I am confident that she will find out what works best with Timber.

One or more of the methods will work just fine for Tiff & Timber.

Mark

[wireweiners]

Well, I have a very alpha personality so the staring works well for me. It might not work as well for Tiff since she is young. I have stared down angry judges, parents who have made death threats and some really nasty teenagers, so staring down a dog is not that big a deal. <IMG SRC="http://dachsie.org/ubb/cwmsmilies/cwm10.gif" border=0> Also I have wires so I can grab them under the chin by the beard to correct them. My "teenage" boys will challenge me once or twice, usually when I am grooming or teaching them to stack and they decide they have had enough. A couple of good corrections and a good butt chewing and they usually decide to give in. The adults get this correction when they start growling or posturing toward each other. Everybody gets a butt chewing to reming them that I am the alpha around the house and fighting is not tolerated. The reason I don't use the alpha roll technique is that I have never seen an alpha dog pysically roll another dog. What actually happens is the alpha will stand over the other dog and growl or actually snap and the other dog voluntarily goes into the submissive belly up position. That is why I will yank their front feet off the ground and "chew them out" until I can feel them trying to get in the belly up position. I will then let them go into the position, make them stay there awhile, then let them up and all is forgiven. This works for me. I'm not saying it will work for every person or every dog.

One other thing I do with the pups and young dogs is to hold them on their backs and rub their tummies during cuddle time. A dominant pup will resist but if you are patient and gentle they will give in after a while. If they snap or mouth you correct them of course. This puts them in a submissive position in a non-threatening way and reinforces your place as alpha.

[dutchman]

I'm at work and don't have time for a long reply right not but here is a quick reply. First the upper cut is reserved for aggressive behavior only and that combined with a loud NO (no should be a reserved word and not used for any thing else, you could use some other word) was the only recommended correction method for such behavior. Do not use the uppercut to correct other behavior problems. For barking you can try placing your had under their chin and lifting up on their lower jaw to close their mouth use the command quiet. Another method used to correct some behavior problems is the spray bottle aimed between the eyes. That one can be especially effective in stopping unwanted barking. I've found my boys also respond to the spray bottle aided at the back of their ears and that technique helped reduce inappropriate barking at our front gate. I ave a spray bottle that I can hit the back of their ears with from some distance. If I have to approach too close they loose interest in what they were barking at and come running for attention so punishment at that time would not work. In general training the reward approach is recommended above all else. To stop some behavior problems distract them by having them do something else positive and then reward them when they do the positive behavior.

Tom

[Mark]

Hi Tiff,

I think what Mary, Tom and I are all saying is to do what works for you and, at the same time, sharing the things that work for us. IMO there are a variety of disciplinary things that can & do work for both different people & different dogs.

I (like Tom) use the spray bottle for barking because it works for me. I use the uppercut for confrontational aggression because it works for me. And I use the staring (with the front feet off the ground like Mary) for stubbornness, less confrontational aggression or agression to each other . . . it works for me. Like Mary, I have a dominant personality and what works for us may not work for others.

In Timber's case . . . he is young enough and the agression has not been long term or out of hand, so I think there's a little time to find out what works for you & Timber. I would start with the staring/butt chewing/front feet in the air method and go from there.

Let us know how it goes,

Mark

[Timber]

Thanks, everyone! I think I'll try the chin bop first. The alpha roll seems that it might hurt a Dachshunds back, no? I have also tried putting him on his back and telling him no until he stops biting. As for barking,the spray water probably would not work because Timber loved it when I sprayed water on him in the summer. He also liked it when I put the spray thing in his mouth and squirted water in it. I don't want him to think a spray bottle is a bad thing. I'll keep ya posted!

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Tiffany
Junior Handler

[Mark]

Hi Tiff,

Please let us know how it goes. http://dachsie.org/ubb/smilies/smile.gif

Mark

[Mandy]

I know our situation with Henry when he was that age was different because he is possessive/aggressive, but I thought I would share this anyway. Now, remember that at that time we did not know that Henry was pos/ag....he would challenge us by guarding something of ours or snapping at us. We tried the alpha roll a couple of time, holding Henry on his back, holding his head down, and staring at him. henry happens to be very stubborn and we were in the alpha roll for a very long time (try 3 hours). Luckily I am more stubborn and was able to hold out until he looked away...but boy, was it a long time. I wouldn't suggest the alpha roll personally, there are many other techniques out there that work really well....and if Timber shows signs of being possessive/aggressive, you need to start working with him on the problem NOW!

[OwnedByChaucer]

Chaucer can be aggressive--but once mommy or daddy gets in his face, he's backs right the heck away. We used the "sit-up" and the alpha roll when he was a baby--but recently, haven't really needed to do much.

If he starts that low growl (he doesn't try and bite at all anymore) at one of use, we stare at him, and say (I kid you not) "who are you growling at"--and literally, he trurns to jello and starts licking/kissing us. If he was laying down, he rolls onto his back by himself. He tries real hard to be a tough guy, but he's not very good at it http://dachsie.org/ubb/smilies/smile.gif

Our little one, Gidget, is by far more dominant, but she's not aggressive at all--I've never heard her growl and she doesn't really try and challenge us. (on the other hand, she kicks Chaucer's butt often).

[Mrs.F]

Hi Tiff,

What a pain, huh? Even though I KNEW that Maggie was just doing what came naturally to her I remember having to remind myself not to let my feelings get hurt when she would snap or growl at me! You've gotten some great advice from everyone here, so just keep working and Timber will get the message I'm sure!
When we got Maggie she already had a firmly established habit of growling and biting in order to get what she wanted. (She turned 7 months old the week we got her.) We tried pretty much everything suggested here and some things worked better than others but putting Maggie in a "sit-stay" is what worked best of all for us. We rolled her over onto her back quite a bit that first week, but my husband was bitten several times rolling her, so we switched to the "sit-stay" as soon as I was sure she really understood what stay meant.
When she growled, snapped or bit down she'd go, we'd put her in a sit - stay and make her stay for a long time (at 7 months, a few minutes is a LONG time). If she'd 'forget' and start to move, we'd put her right back into position. She HATED not being able to get on my lap - she wanted to be snuggled and forgiven and so I really had to force myself to be firm and make her stay for a few minutes before telling her she could hop back up. Also, as Pam mentioned, it was really important for us to work with Maggie on her leash every single day. When I'd take a day or 2 off she seemed to be a little bossier and more likely to growl or snap.
The good news is: even though Maggie had had months of uncorrected and/or improperly corrected bad behavior when we got her, she was pretty much over her biting and snapping within a few weeks of faithful correction. (The growling took a lot longer..... but she had other issues too. Lucky little Timber has been in a safe, loving home his whole life!)
Good luck, I know you can handle this!

Heidi

<FONT COLOR="#00FFFF" SIZE="1" FACE="Verdana, Arial">This message has been edited by Mrs.F on January 28, 2001 at 07:44 AM</font>

[Timber]

The chin bop just made Timber want to bite me more, so I tried the alpha roll. That seems to be working great, although I have to do it a few times to make him stop completly. He looks away quickly, too. Thanks!

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Tiffany
Junior Handler