Are we past help?

[warthog]

Our dachshund, Henry, is a one-year-old mini. He lives with us (two adults), and has been around other people some on walks, vacations, etc. This morning we were walking him and he saw another dog, a smaller one, on a leash. He was barking like crazy, so we let him go over to the other dog. That was probably our first mistake. Well, he tried to bite her and ended up with a mouthful of her hair.

We were shocked and very concerned. We would like to have another dog someday, and possibly children, and it worries us to see this aggressive behavior. Henry is neutered, and we think that should help. We wonder if we are too late to properly socialize our dog. If not, how can we go about doing that?

With us, Henry is very sweet. He can get nippy when he wants attention and is not getting it. Does he have a dominance problem? HELP!! Please give us some suggestions!!

[This message has been edited by warthog (edited May 20, 2000).]

[This message has been edited by warthog (edited May 20, 2000).]

[Wienergal]

Hi, Warthog and Henry! Boy, have YOU come to the right place! And no, Henry is not beyond help. Henry is exerting his territorial instincts, which are very strong in dachshunds.

I have two big standards, Farfel (my boy) and my girl Peaches. Both my dogs are wonderful with people, including annoying little toddlers. Babies can pull on their ears, grab their tails, squeal and squeak like wounded prey, and the worst my dogs will do is look up at me with The Look--the one that says, "PLEASE release me from this misery!" http://dachsie.org/ubb/uh-oh.gif

But they are VERY aggressive toward other dogs. We live in Chicago, so they are always walked on leashes on city streets that are heavily populated with other dogs. On any street they consider to be theirs (i.e., the streets they are walked on regularly), they will tolerate the presence of no other dogs with the following exceptions: the pair of bichons down the block (both females, and they like them), the pair of Scotties down the block (both neutered males; they tolerate them), and puppies. All other dogs are huge threats--my two respond with upright hairs on their backs, lunging, barking, leaping in the air, etc. In particular, there is an Akita who is the bane of Farfel's existence. He goes completely insane when the Akita is anywhere in the vicinity; he can smell the Akita even before he sees him.

There are dog owners who are so dumb that they see me coming toward them with my two vicious, snarling, lunging dogs and they allow their dogs to come running up to us! Unless the dog acts real submissive, I have to get my two away fast or they will snap at the dog. Peaches was surprised one night; it was dark and she was...um, busy...and a man came up behind us with a beagle, who proceeded to run right over to where she was squatting and sniff at her. She went for him and I was unprepared, but luckily, no damage was done.

I consulted a dog behaviorist, and this is what we did. First, I put prong collars on the dogs and learned to use them properly. Then, walking only one dog at a time, we walked past the trainer, who had brought her Belgian along as "bait." As soon as my dog began to show aggression, s/he got a quick snap on the prong collar and a "Heel." We did this over and over and over, until the dogs got the idea and just ignored the Belgian. It was the usual conditioning approach, and it worked very well. (By the way, the prong was necessary because my dogs would choke themselves with choke collars, rather than listen to me when another dog was present.)

It works very well. Unfortunately, I usually walk the two of them together, and when they're a "pack," they're much harder to control.

I should point out, for your own peace of mind, that the dogs are fine when we're walking on strange streets (i.e., not "their" streets), in the park, etc.--in places they don't "own." AND this aggression has never been extended to people, so I wouldn't worry too much about that. Henry is probably just being territorial--it's troubling and needs to be corrected, but it doesn't necessarily mean he's going to become aggressive toward other creatures.

Unless they're on skateboards or Rollerblades...

Penny's Aunt suggested using a spray bottle of water--when Henry shows aggression toward another dog, give him a blast in the face.

Oh, one more thing: It's important that, when Henry begins acting up, YOU remain calm. Give him the "out" or "heel" or "stop" command in a calm, firm voice, and give him one firm snap of the leash. If you begin to act upset with HIM, he will perceive it as your being upset with the other dog too, and he'll be even MORE aggressive.

Good luck!!!



[This message has been edited by Wienergal (edited May 20, 2000).]

[LisaH]

No, Henry is not past help, but it sounds like it would be a good idea to get the help of a behaviorist. I'd say the first step is to work on Henry's nipping at YOU. Even in play this is not acceptable--he's putting you on the same level as him, and that means you'll have a hard time establishing enough authority to convince him not to bite other dogs. Whenever he lays teeth on you, either turn your back and ignore him, or scream "Yipe!" as if he's hurt you, or maybe even hold his muzzle gently closed and nip him back--whatever seems to work best. A behaviorist can offer more specific help based on what she sees going on. Good luck!

[warthog]

Thanks for the suggestions, Wienergal and LisaH, particularly those about stopping the nipping with us first. Do you think it is effective to put him in his kennel when he nips like this? We don't want him to think of the kennel as a negative place, since he stays there during the day when we are at work.

[LisaH]

No, don't crate him--as you say, you don't want him to associate the crate with punishment. Turning your back and walking away should be enough, if what he wants is attention--it's just a way of conveying to him that he won't get what he wants by nipping. And give him lots of chew toys and praise him when he bites those, so he'll know biting is okay, just not biting YOU.

What works best depends on your dog's personality. We had great success with biting our Annie on the muzzle when she went too far--she got this amazed look on her face, like "YOU could bite ME? I'm sorry--I didn't realize!"

[Penny's Aunt]

I would agree with Lisa.

First, anytime he nips you (or AT you), yelp "Ouch!" like your finger just fell off. Then walk out of the room. Leaving the room will reinforce the idea that nipping DOES NOT get him what he wants. Make sure your husband does the same. A united front produces faster results.

The nipping can actually be a good thing in disguise. Many dogs have never nipped or bitten, & when they do, it's full-force. That can be a major disaster. A nipper can be trained with the "Ouch!" to nip gently, just putting his teeth on you with no pressure. This is a VERY, VERY GOOD THING! A dog that has been trained to a "soft bite" may still bite again when provoked (small child pulls tail or ears, etc). But instead of the full-force bite, he may just whip around & put his teeth on the child's hand. While this can panic some mothers (& where were THEY when the kid was with the dog?), it is a way the dog can protect itself, warn the kid, & not get you a major lawsuit. This is literally a win/win/win situation.

Be aware that aggression on leash is often more common than aggression off-leash. When a dog is on a leash, his actions are restricted. He may think that since he does not have the option of running away, he should take an aggressive stance to protect himself. Two dogs without leashes in a large yard would probably act very differently. They can close the distance if the other dog appears friendly, or they can run if they want to.

Making an effort to socialize your dog can have big benefits. Putting your dog in a large enclosed area with a FRIENDLY-TO-OTHER-DOGS DOG THAT HAS BEEN PROPERLY SOCIALIZED without any restraints (leash or holding collars) can get your dog to learn the proper social procedures, which a puppy that hasn't been socialized with other dogs since his litter doesn't learn by himself. If he is too obnoxious, the teacher-dog may snap or growl at him. This is okay, the teacher-dog is doing his job. Young dogs especially can be a pain: "look at me, aren't I cute?" & jumping all over the teacher-dog until the teacher-dog reacts to put a stop to it.

The more teacher-dogs you expose your dog to, the better. But you have to use good judgment with the dogs you choose.

[Mandy]

Don't give up hope! Our oldest dachsie (we have two), Henry <maybe it's the name?> had a possessive/aggressive problem. I have two words for you...POSITIVE TRAINING! This is the only way to go...At Henry's worst, we were terrified that we would have to get rid of our little baby, but with continued positive training he is just a snuggle butt and sweetheart.

The suggestion about saying ouch is great. We use that with the puppy, Jakey. Whenever he nips while playing, we squeal like a puppy, after all, they learn play behavior from litter mates and this is how they would react. It has worked wonders with Jakey. He gets really rambunctious, and as soon as we squeal, he stops and gets this little face that says..."what? I hurt you? I am so, so sorry. I love you and didn't mean to do that."

Check into some of the ideas of animal behaviorists. Books by Jean Donaldson may be of some value to you.

It sounds like your Henry needs to be socialized...take it slowly and work up to being around people of all sorts and dogs of all sorts....Understand that this is a process and that there is no immediate cure and I am certain he will do great.

You need to remind yourself and him that YOU are the TOP ALPHA. Make him earn things...i.e. he has to sit to get a treat or play with a favorite toy. He may be an alpha dog, but Mommy and Daddy are still top. Our Henry is definitely an alpha dog, but we remind him that we are still in charge.

Good luck and let us know how it goes!

[Wienergal]

Oh good grief!! I totally misssed the nipping part of the first post!!!

Time to let the little guy know who is in charge, Warthog!! Penny's Aunt's ouch-and-leave strategy is tried and true. Remember that, for the average dog, the worst thing in life is being ignored and left alone!!

I think the socialization suggestions might be helpful, but... My two dogs are VERY well socialized; you can take them anywhere. EXCEPT for a walk on a leash on their turf. That aggression has never gone away, and given the age of my dogs, I don't expect it to. So I think that that particular problem has to be dealt with on its won. At least that's the case with my dogs.

[This message has been edited by Wienergal (edited May 21, 2000).]

[Penny's Aunt]

I'll bet your two demons just egg each other on to louder & better vicious-dog sounds, don't they? I wonder if this is true aggressiveness, or if they're just having a good time? (A girl by herself doesn't usually yell at passing traffic for fun, but 2 or 3 girls... well, that's different!)

"I can bark louder than you can!"

"No, you can't! I can bark louder than you & act meaner, too! See? We're driving Mom crazy! Heehee! Isn't this fun?"

[Mickamack]

Weinergal, you had mentioned that you used prong collars and had success with them....I have a question though. We've talked about Mickey being aggressive before. My Mickey is only about 9.5 lbs. He wears a 12 inch collar. Most prong collars are for dogs that are bigger..at least a 14 inch collar. Mickey would SWIM in a 14inch collar!! So, can I use one? I've seen in a pet store in the area that they sell individual prongs...I guess to perhaps expand the collar. Do you all think I could buy enough of these extra prongs to MAKE a smaller one for Mick. I've looked in Foster's and Smith, pet stores, etc, and they are all pre-made too big for him.

Thanks for the help!

[wireweiners]

There is a company called Sylvia's Tack Box that makes prong collars, tracking harnesses and other obedience equipment for toy and miniature dogs. They have a website but I don't know the address.
Dachshunds in general are very territorial and even more so in their yard or when being walked by their owners. Wheeler, who is the world's biggest wuss, hates big dogs, especially big hairy dogs./ubb/smilies/mad.gif When we are at shows he's ok but when we are at the motel he wants to eat every non-dachshund on the premises. It is really embarrassing./ubb/smilies/emb.gif

[Wienergal]

It IS embarrassing!! /ubb/smilies/uh-oh.gif All the owners of big dogs in my general vicinity know me as That Woman With Those Two Evil Wiener Dogs! /ubb/smilies/crying.gif Penny's Aunt, I think you're right about the two of them egging each other on. They're quite good when it's just one of them and me! /ubb/smilies/crying.gif /ubb/smilies/crying.gif

Mickamack, it's interesting to note that, in the eyes of the dog collar makers, only BIG dogs can be aggressive!! I'm glad Wirewieners was able to point you in the right direction; I had no trouble finding prongs for my two, since they both wear a size 16 collar. Remember: They are BIG standards!! /ubb/smilies/eek.gif

[Owen's Mom]

Owen wears a prong collar too. I have a car harness for him, but I'll tell you, it's impossible to walk him in it and I know that he's putting too much strain on his back by pulling so hard. There is such a thing as a "micro-prong" for smaller dogs. You should check out www.jbpet.com (http://www.jbpet.com) They have great prices and they carry the herm-springer prongs (very well made, good german craftmanship /ubb/smilies/biggrin.gif).

I know that many dachshund owners believe that you should not pull on a dachsie's neck, but to be honest, you don't have to with a prong. It's like power steering for your dogs. Owen stopped pulling right away. He was literally choking himself out on the standard choke chain and he'd slip the buckle collar. You also have to remember that a dogs 2nd strongest set of muscles are those in his neck, 2nd only to the ones in his jaws. I get stupid, uneducated comments on it all the time, but I just ignore them or explain that it's much more humane than a choke chain and does not cause tracheal damage. You can take links out also, we had to do this to fit Owen properly. I had a trainer fit him, you might see if you can find one that advocates using pinch/prong collars and see if they'll fit Mickey for you.

Here's a picture of Owen w/one of his "women" and I think you can see his collar. It's worth a try for you... I'm not here to start a hot debate, you've got to find what works for your dog and not feel bad for wanting to keep them under control. http://albums.photopoint.com/j/View?u=628165&a=4582128&p=20502651&Sequence=0

Email me if you need more support, I'd be happy to help as would Pamela!!

~~Amy & Owen /ubb/smilies/facelick.gif~~

[This message has been edited by Owen's Mom (edited May 22, 2000).]

[loving two dachsie's]

I can feel wienergal's pain/ubb/smilies/crying.gif

Everytime someone walks any where near my house its BARK CITY!! When I walk them , especially Bailey, god forbid someone pulls up in a car, or comes out of their house, my puppers go nutso, like they want to have them for dinner/ubb/smilies/emb.gif

I will have to check into the prong collar thing, it just may be what Bailey needs. This may sound crzy, but he seems to bark more at certain people, as if he gets a bad vibe. And he hates people with baseball caps on!

Linda



[This message has been edited by loving two dachsie's (edited May 22, 2000).]

[Wienergal]

Linda, thanks to you (and Bill Clinton) for feeling my pain!

Like that picture-postin' Amy, I am convinced by my experience that prongs are much more humane than choke collars. It's funny, really--nobody makes a peep when they see Rotties or Dobes with prongs on, but when they see those cute widdle dachsies, they seem to think it's cruel. My dogs have never yelped or cried when I give them a tug and they're wearing their prongs, but they sure have choked and snorked with the choke collars. (Forget slip collars--they wiggle right out of them!) The trick is in learning to use the prong correctly: You don't pull on the leash, you simply give a small tug, then release, giving your command as you tug. I guess, because I live in this dog-and car-heavy city, that my first concern is that my dogs do not get away from me, that they don't get near enough to another dog to hurt the dog, AND that they don't get near enough to be hurt themselves.

When I put the prongs on, they really behave differently; it's like they KNOW they can't act up.

Love the photo, Amy! I gotta get a digital camera--that's all there is to it! /ubb/smilies/shy.gif

(I'm having smiley trouble again....)

[This message has been edited by Wienergal (edited May 22, 2000).]

[This message has been edited by Wienergal (edited May 22, 2000).]

[This message has been edited by Wienergal (edited May 22, 2000).]

[Mandy]

I would love any info on prong collars that you guys might have. Jakey pulls so hard on the leash that he starts to choke himself and make sthat really horrible sound. We are constantly giving a quick tug and saying "wait." Henry was never this bad. We are always afraid that Jakey will hurt himself by pulling so hard. Thanks for any info.

[warthog]

Well, we have been trying the "ignore" idea when Henry nips at us. It is working great so far! He just looks at us like, "What? You don't want to play with me????" He eventually will get a toy and amuse himself, but he clearly is peeved not to have our attention. He can look extremely hurt! We are also having him sit for EVERYTHING (food, to go in or out, toys, etc.). This also seems to be helping.

On our walks, we are trying to keep him on a short leash. He barks like crazy when we pass people, bikers,etc., as you all mentioned that your dogs do, but he has not done anything aggressive.

So, thanks for the good advice! Now, there IS the small matter of him throwing up in our bed at 1:15 a.m. yesterday . . . : )
He's fine; I think he just got smothered and choked up under the covers! Does that ever happen to anyone else's dachsie?

[This message has been edited by warthog (edited May 23, 2000).]

[loving two dachsie's]

We have been dealing with some of the same "attitude" with Bailey. He does this growl thing when he is tired and sleeping under the covers, god forbid you disturb him.

when he growls at us I yell "NO GROWL" then I give him the cold shoulder for a while. And he does that " I am really hurt" thing to us to.

I had him to the vet this morning for his lyme shot and I ran it by the Dr. Her response was that I was doing the right thing. She said let him know he can not get away with it. She also so it is a very workable situation, just be consistent with my response to Bailey when he does this. Of course he is such a little /ubb/smilies/angel.gif for the Vet!

We are also trying to get a handle on the barking thing. I have the same situation when we walk him, people look at him like he is a mean dog. He is a great pupper, only 1 years old and from rescue he just needs some proper direction/ubb/smilies/facelick.gif

Good luck with Henry/ubb/smilies/smile.gif

Linda



[This message has been edited by loving two dachsie's (edited May 23, 2000).]

[Mandy]

Our Henry does the same growl thing in bed once in a while, too. When he does this, I tell him not to talk naughty. If he keeps it up for a while (i.e. does it for several nights) then he gets kicked out of our bed for a night. /ubb/smilies/uh-oh.gif And you know that is the worst possible thing we could do to him....it just reminds him who is boss and he cuts it out.

I don't know if any of you with dachsies with an attitude have noticed this, but Henners is really grouchy (and more likely to be growly) when he is tired. Our vet gave us a setative when we drove to my sisters before last Christmas so he wouldn't be growly...he usually rides really well in a car, but he hadn't gotten much sleep and was growly before we left, so we gave him one. BIG mistake...they just made him more sleepy and more growly.....it's a good thing they're so lovable /ubb/smilies/biggrin.gif

[Marci]

Lucy does a similar thing in bed when she is really sleepy and tired. It is more of a groan-moan thing. Thus her nickname - "Mona Lucy"! She really does it when she is comfy under the covers..You know how they get!!
G-d forbid you move her!!My husband and I can bearly touch toes when she spreads out under the covers! Only 9lbs but what a territorial little girl!/ubb/smilies/angel.gif

She does the barking at many other (big) dogs too. Her hair (she is longhaired) stands up all over and she looks pretty scary but soooo little!!! It is so comforting to know that you are all as embarrassed by your dachsies as I get at my little baby!!!/ubb/smilies/emb.gif

We sure love her anyway... We know it's only cuz she luvs us too! Right?!

[wireweiners]

I found an article by Suzanne Clothier on training with a prong collar (along with a lot of other good articles on training and behavior) at www.flyingdogpress.com (http://www.flyingdogpress.com) Suzanne is a very well known dog trainer.
Also the address for Sylvia's Tack Box is 4333 11th Street A
Moline, IL 61265
309-797-9060

[WOTANSMUTTI]

I'm thinking about getting Wotan a spiked collar, the type bear-baiting dogs wear to protect him from the coyotes,eagles, owls and crazzed woodrats he may encounter when I'm not looking! Grrrrrrrr! /ubb/smilies/angry.gif

[Mickamack]

Wotan IS "Hunter-Man"!!!

[Tanya]

Hi Warthog. Punkin would throw up under covers now and then. She was so kind that everytime she had to vomit, she would come to her mom (me) and throw up on my legs. How sweet. She too had the growling thing going on like Bailey. If she was in the bed, you could not touch her to suggest she move over without a vicious sounding growl. We would say "no growling" in a very serious tone. Until we "forgave her" she would sit right under us trying to get us to pet her or kiss her. When we did, she would be ok and go back to sleep.

I love Dachsies!!