Wondering about Double Dapple

[raggitysue]

We have a male mini dachshund. He is black/tan dapple with quite a bit of white on him. I really think he is a double dapple. We never saw the father, but the mother had just a tiny patch of dapple on her. But, it also says piebald on his papers, he's AKC. He has one blue eye, one brown and the brown one is what I think they call a small eye. We knew about this when we bought him, we were already attached and it was too late! Any opinions on if he is a dapple or double dapple? We also have a chocolate/tan longhair female. We plan to breed them when they are both old enough. He's 9 months, she's 4 months.

www.raggitysue.com/dockaty1.jpg

Here is a pic where you can see them both, right after we first got her and it shows his markings and his eyes. He has the white blaze on his forehead and neck and underneath he is nearly all white. Also white on part of his paws. I don't know how to directly post a pic in this board, sorry.

[AgileOllie]

He appears to be dapple, but if his papers say piebald, his father could have been pied, making him a dapple/pied cross, but certainly not a "true piebald." Unreputable breeders will do this to get "exotic" colors and have no thought for health or temperment. Blue eyes can occur in dapples, but not in piebalds. You can also see a dog that appears to be black and tan, but he/she may carry dapple, and the dappling could be so light (even under the gums) that you'd never know it was there.
Typically double dapples will have a mostly white head (see Chloe in my earlier post), causing them to be blind and/or deaf. Sometimes piebalds can be mistaken for DD, but piebalds usually have a symetrical pattern on their heads, all black and tan, all red, etc.
Here is a better explaination of the differences between colors and patterns:http://www.dachshund.org/
Hope this helps some.

[LUVMYGUNNER]

I don't think I would breed them unless you did a backround search--I'm sure you will get lots of input on this.

[Kim H.]

but I'd guess he might be a DD or maybe a mixed pattern - piebald/DD or piebald/dapple. I have a little one like that. Here's a picture when she was tiny:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v617/rxkah/cass-2pics.jpg

May we ask why you want to breed? Are you a professional breeder, or do you plan to show your dogs? It would not be optimal to mix patterns, and if your choc/tan had any dapple, there is the potential of a double dapple and all its associated health concerns.

Your pups are absolutely darling. Welcome to our board. :)

[AgileOllie]

I don't think I would breed them unless you did a backround search--I'm sure you will get lots of input on this.

Oh gosh, I missed where you were intending to breed them. I have to tell you that most people will strongly urge you not to. While he is a beautiful puppy, it is important to breed only to better the breed. He seems to be a bit leggie and you could be passing on a host of genetic abnormalities, especially if you don't even know his true pattern. He is definately not piebald. He carries dapple and if your puppy carries dapple too, you are asking for alot of heartache and pain. So many dachshunds are born every day and we get them in at an uncontrollable rate. It may be hard to believe, but it's oh so true. We have to turn dogs away almost daily because we don't have room.
I hope for both their sakes that you get them spayed and help us stop the constant influx of dachshunds who are unwanted and /or ill. Please reconsider, for their sakes AND for the sakes of their would-be babies. There are some really good breeders on this board who can lead you in the right direction.

[Kim H.]

It's just whatever the breeder opted to list as the color/pattern. You cannot register multiple patterns, so Cass is listed as a double dapple (that is appropriate since it identifies the possible risk if she were bred) but I also have her sister who was registered as "wild boar" - apparently this color does not even exist in longhairs. She should have been listed as red.

[TessieMom]

He looks very similar to several double dapples that have come into rescue in Texas lately. I would say it is likely, but he could also be a pie-dapple x. By the way, two of the double dapples that we got lately, had pie on their registration papers, but even the breeder said they were double dapple. I would have him neutered asap to prevent potential problems.

[dutchman]

I believe if he has a blue eye then that means he is at least a single dapple sounds like he is a double daple. You say she is also a dapple. With so many dogs already in need of good homes why add to the overpopulation problem especially when you will be running a high risk of producing a litter when they are likely to be a high incidence of healt issues. If you relly love dachshunds please don't breed dogs without being very well versed in dog genetics and then have the ability to uske that knowledge tracing back your dogs familes as many generations back as possible.

[LUVMYGUNNER]

I just adopted a little dapple by the name of Petunia, I got her from Beckie one of our own, she found the mother wandering a country road pg and she took her in, she had 5 pups. Petunia is "not" a dd she is very healthy but a couple of her littermates were born with double cleft palates and died within a few days. So unless you do research and know a lot about the breeder I would not do it also when they are tiny dogs they dent to have to have C-sections sometimes they die giving birth etc, etc.... Something to think about!

[Sausage Mom]

Just looking at the picture, (two cuties btw)...I'm just curious why you want to breed your dogs? Although no doubt they are cute, it's just not good enough reason to breed. Getting into dapple breeding is just sooooooo risky. Here are some reason that I just want you to consider and really think if spaying and neutering isn't best for your family.

article from about.com
Why People Want To Breed Dogs, And Why They Shouldn't

Almost everybody loves puppies. Who could resist that sweet puppy breath or soft, downy fur?

Unfortunately, when it comes to dog breeding, a love of puppies is simply not enough to breed your dog. Hundreds of puppies are born every day, and hundreds of adorable puppies are put to sleep in shelters across North America. We have a serious pet overpopulation problem right now.

The Reasons People Want to Breed Their Dogs:
# I want another one just like my dog.
# I want to make money.
# I want my children to witness the miracle of birth.
# Puppies are cute, there's always people who want puppies.

The Reasons People Should NOT Breed Their Dogs:
# I want another one just like my dog.

This never works according to plan. When a dog gets pregnant, the puppies will take the father's traits, personality, and physical, and the mother's traits, and mix them up, taking some of one, some of another, and developing their own altogether. You will never get a perfect match. In stead you may end up with the worst traits of both dogs.

# I want to make money.

I can't believe people can still think they can make money off of puppies. The cost of breeding will overshadow any profits you think to make. The puppies need their first shots before going to their new homes, the mother needs frequent check-ups, and heaven forbid if something goes wrong. And something always goes wrong.

# I want my children to witness the miracle of birth.

This "miracle" can now be easily viewed by both children and adults thanks to such wonderful programming as "A Baby Story" and "Maternity Ward", both available on cable television.

Not only that, but how much of a "miracle" will your child be seeing if your beloved pet dies halfway through delivery?

# Puppies are cute, there's always people who want puppies.

No, unfortunately this is the most ignorant assumption made these days. Not everybody wants puppies. Hundreds die everyday because of the lack of homes. How heartbreaking to hold a twelve week old puppy and put her to sleep because somebody thought for sure there would be somebody else who wanted her.

For every puppy born, three die in shelters. There are too many out there and not enough homes for them all.

If this is not enough reasons to stop you from breeding your dog, then here are a few more:

Complications in birth and pregnancies happen all the time. You could face losing your dog to death, and all the puppies with her. Will YOU pay the $1200.00 for a much-needed emergency cesarean section when she cannot deliver the pups?

What about sexually-transmitted diseases? That stud dog you had picked out may have one. They are more common than you think.

How about genetic diseases? They abound.

Breeding is not a careless affair, it is so much more than bringing bitch and stud together during a heat cycle.

Please think it over carefully.

[raggitysue]

Thanks for all your input. Somebody mentioned my female was a dapple, no she is not. She is a chocolate long hair. I am definitely going to do more research.

[doxunzX3]

http://www.12many.com/duchwood/colorpat.html

Anyway we where discussing patterns etc today at the doxie meet up. One of the things on this site talks about the eye's and the problems some doxies have. I know the (reputalbe breeders) in my area have the eye testing done before they breed.
Plus are you sure there isn't any wire hairs in their back ground. If you get a wire coat mixed in with the long your puppies could all turn out like a wuzzy. Kinda fuzzy wire(ie) mix. It happens often if you don't know the background of your puppies. Research is so important for not only the beauty of the dogs but the health also.
I hope you don't think we are trying to be mean or accusing we just all want healthy happy dogs. I am sure you do too.

[Heide]

to DBB. Where we are all family.
Your babies are precious.
While I am not sure if he is a DD, I would never risk breeding him. This world of our's is so full of unwanted dogs already.
I adopted a DD from CTDR. He is a sweetheart and the love of our lives. But not all are this lucky. They are put to sleep, or given up to shelters.
If your not showing your dogs and bettering the breed, then please dont breed them.
Do your babies a favor and have them spayed/neutered as soon as possible. I know its hard to hear these things, but we would not say anything if it were not true.
Do lots and lots of research on breeding.

[Juneysmom]

Welcome to DBB, raggitysue and pups. Your pups are really cute. :wavey: :wavey: :wavey:

You asked if your pup was DD or not. I'm not an expert except that if he is a DD, then I know that you can get a litter where as the breeder, it will make you grieve. The puppies will not be in good shape. You MIGHT get one out of the whole litter that will be okay.

The purpose of breeding is to improve the BEST of the breed. Unless you have taken both of your pups to a show and won Best of Breed, then it wouldn't be prudent to breed. You do sound like you don't want to be a back-yard-breeder, since you are willing to do some research. Many good breeders show and get the points BEFORE they start the breeding. This way, if the pup they have is not high quality, then they can spay/neuter the pup.

Breeding can be expensive, and deadly tiring, but if you still are interested in breeding then contact the Dachshund club in your state and go to their meetings. They will have worlds of advice and can look at your pup and let you know if the pup would be a good candidate for show and breeding. This way you become a great and reputable breeder. It does take time, though.

[raggitysue]

I did go online last night and get Doc's pedigree, that is our male's name. His father was a blue/tan double dapple, mother was a black/tan dapple. The next generation up has piebald in it. This pedigree went back 5 generations and there were no wirehaired in it. We had a lady that wanted us to let her use Doc for stud service, she wants to breed her chocolate female for pets for her family. She told me that her female has a small spot on her, so I don't think it's a good idea to breed him to her at all. I am going to advise her to check into her dog's background, too. She really needs to know the particulars. I had no idea it was so easy to get their pedigree or I would have done it a long time ago. I am not into showing dogs at all. I just really love the dachshund breed. We have bred dogs in the past, so we know what we are getting into. I know none of your comments are meant as being mean or anything, I totally understand what you are saying. No way do I want puppies that are unhealthy and I would absolutely die if anything happened to my female.

[Dachshundrsq]

If you are not into Showing, then you probably shouldn't be into breeding. Responsible breeders realize these things go hand in hand. Since you don't really know what your dog is in regards to colors/patterns, this automatically increases the risks of producing puppies with health problems. You male doesn't look like he is the best specimen of a dachshund. This is not meant to hurt you in any way. I am sure he is a sweet loving dog that has stolen your heart, but that doesn't mean he is of good enough quality to breed. Just from the picture I can tell he is too leggy and doesn't have the chest drop or forechest that the dachshund standard mentions. Theny we could discuss his Micropthamalia. Usually dachshunds do not have this disorder in their "Good" eyes. I would suggest a visit to the Opthamalogist. It could be that there is a genetic problem you could be passing on to his offspring if he is bred. Also, there is now a DNA test for PRA in Long Hair dachshunds. I suggest you get information on having your female tested. The test identifies "Affecteds", "Carriers" and "Clears". The affected dogs will eventually get PRA and will pass on the gene 100% of the time to their offspring. A Carrier will not have the disease but will pass along the gene to 50% of their offspring, a "Clear" is totally clear of the disease and are safe for breeding. Soon there will be a DNA test for PRA in Smooths. The test runs about $100.00 and is done in the UK. Hopefully, eventually the test will get cheaper as more breeders use it, but since it was just released a couple of months ago, it will probably be awhile before the prices go down. At least this is a test that can be done once in a lifetime and never needed again. Where did you get your puppies??

[raggitysue]

What is PRA? We got our male DD from a lady who was just getting into breeding here in Southeastern Oklahoma. She was given the mother dog after it was pregnant. I don't think she had any idea that the puppies were double dapple, didn't even know what that meant. I got the chocolate female from a breeder in Northern Oklahoma. She told me that Katie is definitely not a dapple.

Oh, by the way, Doc's full name is Doc Roscoe P. Coaltrain Holiday, (his Dad's name was Roscoe P. Coaltrain XV11. And I'm going to register Katie as Kate Daisy Duke Holiday.

Never mind, I did find out what PRA is. And there are a lot of breeds that are affected with it, according to one article I read.

[natfro]

PRA does affect many breeds, and so does hip dysplasia. But ask 90% of people breeding dogs if thier dogs are OFA'd and you get "huh? whats that?"

Here is how I work it out in my own mind:

Spay females at 6 months, reduce risk of breast cancer.
Spay females at 6 months, no worry of c-sections.
Spay females at 6 months, no pregnancy, no bladder weakening early in life.

By choosing to spay my DD I have done everything in my ability to prolong her life because I chose to have a companion animal. I also could have, with a small fight, gotten AKC papers, but declined. There was absolutely no reason to obtain papers for me. I was actually so worried about "the possibilities" that I spayed her at 4 months old.

The way I saw it DD's have a hard enough time without adding "giving birth" to the already overwhelming list.

I asked myself a long time ago, as a kid actually-around 17, did I want pets to love for the maximum length of time, or did I want to make puppies. For me making puppies meant showing, excelling, and becoming so knowledgeable to my chosen breed that it would become my life.

I came to the conclusion, that for me, breeding of these dogs I love should be left in the hands of the professionals. I figured I could love the breed, stay involved and work it from the opposite end, and keep learning as I go. Instead of making more dogs (canine body as a whole), I would go for the "unwanted's" and try to educate the best I could.

Breeding should improve the lines of the species generation by generation. I figured if I could not knowlingly and diligently do that, then I had no business attempting it.

Everyone has to make their own decisions. I actually wrote up the "pro" vs. "con" items in a paper as a senior in high school. It related to breeding of all species...yes, even the human species.

[DoxieCrazy]

Our Lilly is a double dapple, and nearly blind because of it. Her "breeder" for lack of a better word, chose to breed her over and over - despite the fact she was blind. We recently discovered she has epilepsy too. There are so many things that can go wrong breeding a double dapple, I wouldn't recommend it.

[Cindi]

Never mind, I did find out what PRA is. And there are a lot of breeds that are affected with it, according to one article I read.

Uhm, from this sentence I believe you are saying that since other breeds have it why worry? Dogs go blind, if they have PRA, at some point in their lives. Is this what you want to sell/give to a friend/family member/anyone? If you don't know what you are breeding (by *know* I mean have someone who can tell you about the history not just read names and possible colors) this can happen.
Many years ago when I got in to dachshunds I purchased my start from a very well-known handler/breeder who didn't tell me what he knew. What he didn't know cost myself and some friends dearly in the heart. This line carries epilepsy which doesn't evidence itself until the dog is 5 years old or more. Although epilepsy is not deadly, it can be frightening if you have never dealt with it AND some of the dogs have to go on med's that can be life shortening. By the time a dog is 5 years old it could possibly have many offspring. Fortunately, I'm a very small time breeder and got a handle on this (by this I mean everything of that bloodline was spayed/neutered) before there were many progeny out there.
One comment on colors on pedigrees - because piebalds sell better than DD's, some *breeders* use that description on their double dapples. Wild boar sounds exotic to some so they will use that description of a simple red with black hairs.

Cindi

PS There are other genetic problems that cannot be tested for but if you knew the background of the dogs and their siblings, you would know the potential.

[dachsie_luv]

Excellent post---Great advice!!! Willy (Rescue), my chocolate dapple has (vision diluted genes) resulting in 1 blind eye, & glaucoma (genetic predispositions). They are also predisposed for hearing diluted genes (among other problems.
Please reconsider!

[raggitysue]

Uhm, from this sentence I believe you are saying that since other breeds have it why worry?

Oh, no Cindi, I did not mean that at all, I was just reiterating what I had read and was suprised really to find out how many dogs DO have the same abnormality. I would NEVER breed to GET double dapples. If we had known our male was double dapple, we probably would not have taken him. (But we are SO glad we did!) Since we have gotten our chocolate baby, it really brings to light just how much of a sight deficit he DOES have. He doesn't have hearing problems at all and really compensates with his hearing and sense of smell. I was looking at some of the pics of doubles on the site and some of them really got hit with that evil gene.

[raggitysue]

Our Lilly is a double dapple, and nearly blind because of it. Her "breeder" for lack of a better word, chose to breed her over and over - despite the fact she was blind. We recently discovered she has epilepsy too. There are so many things that can go wrong breeding a double dapple, I wouldn't recommend it.


We once had a cocker spaniel who had epilepsy, we didn't know that until after we bred her. It never showed up until after that. And two of her puppies had it as well. It was odd how it showed up right after she had her puppies, like the stress of it all might have brought it on?

[My3Dachsies]

Welcome to DBB raggitysue! Doc looks a lot like our Speck - I've tried to pick out 2 pics that showed all the white on his chest/belly.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v610/gulfcoastdoxies/specksuzy1.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v610/gulfcoastdoxies/specksuzy13dec04a.jpg

We had him neutered at 6 months old. We've ran into several people that give us the "Oh, I have a friend that is wanting to breed her dachshund! Would you consider studding him?" Nope, so sorry. He's one of a kind! :lol: Please consider neutering Doc. He's a beautiful baby!

Big hugs, :hugs1: