Fight!!!!!

[wireweiners]

4th of July weekend, Pippin and Buddy got into a hellacious fight. I was laying on the sofa watching the tube, Buddy, Rita and the pups were playing in the middle of the living room floor, Pippin was lyining next to the sofa and Katie was in her chair. Every thing was peaceful and I was just wishing I had a picture of Buddy and the pups playing to post so y'all could seed how cute they were. All of a sudden all hell breaks loose. Pippin jumped Buddy, Katie jumped in on Buddy then everybody was after poor Buddy. I got everybody separated, I was bleeding the most (Pippin got me on the thumb) and doctored us all. I punished Katie, put her outside and kept Pippin in his crate the rest of the day. Later that evening I thought they had settled down but Pippin was still growling and posturing at Buddy. I kept them separated when I was not present and rotated them in the yard. Katie, once I got on to her didn't act agressive toward Buddy as long as Pippin wasn't around. A couple of days later, they got into it again. This time Buddy got a few punctures, enough to be put on antibiotics. I still kept them separated, kept Pippin on a leash when they were in the house together and corrected him for growling at Buddy. I still treated Pippin as alpha, fed him first, etc. Today I was getting ready to feed them. I had Pippin tied to the kitchen island and I was cleaning the kitchen, washing dog dishes etc. Buddy got too close to Pippin and the wreck was on. Katie got Buddy by the throat and I was afraid she was going to kill him before I could get her off. Pippin had Buddy by the back leg. I finally pried Katie off, threw her in the utility room then pried Pippin off and threw him in his crate. Buddy had his throat torn open and several other deep wounds and had to go to the emergency room to be sewn up.

I have no idea why this started. When they first began fighting Wheeler was staying with some friends as Rita had been in heat plus they were taking him to some shows for me. I was afraid Pippin would jump him when he came back but Wheeler just walked in and started kissing Pippin and there have been no problems between them or between Wheeler and Buddy. In fact, Wheeler would clean Buddy's wounds for him. Katie is not agressive toward the dachshunds unless Pippin starts it.

The pack dynamics are me, Pippin, Katie and then the rest of the bunch. Pippin, Katie and Buddy are neutered and they are the oldest. Wheeler, Rita, Whopper and Button are intact. Whopper and Button are the pups, 7 months old. I am going to spay Rita this fall. Pippin was just recently neutered. I don't know if Whopper's reaching puberty has upset the pack balance, if Pippin's neutering has anything to do with it or what. Pippin and Buddy have had a few minor spats before but nothing as serious as this. Wheeler is a pacifist (when this last fight broke out he went and jumped on the sofa) and Whopper has not challenged anybody for supremacy.

I have decided to let Buddy go live with my mom and dad. They live less than a mile from me and I'm down there most every day. They have 2 mini longs that are pretty laid back and I think Buddy will get along fine there. I will miss having him at my house but I am afraid for his safety if I keep him there. I am worried about Pippin starting in on Wheeler or Whopper. Anybody have any insights or suggestions? Penny's Aunt, help???

[~8DachsieAngels~]

Wow Wire sorry to hear about all the scuff going on at your place i have those problems myself at time with 8 intact dogs but 2 are getting fixed in about 6wks... and they really arent mature yet... we havent had any blood shed yet... but a few little bald spots from snapping at each other ... our biggest warriors are Cactus (alpha male) and Buh-Buh (wanna be alpha male) asserting their dominace luckily i think Buh-Buh will be neutered 1st we had planned to breed him but found he had some rear knee problems ... http://dachsie.org/ubb/smilies/frown.gif Luxating Patellas so he will live the life of a fixed spoiled pampered house pet http://dachsie.org/ubb/smilies/smile.gif All i can say is hang in there its gotta have something to do with all that male testosterone ... maybe when u have your other dogs fixed this will help. Im just sorry u have to give one of your babys up but its for a good reason u want him to be safe ... Good luck and hope things get better there soon http://dachsie.org/ubb/smilies/frown.gif

Jen

[Mark]

Hi Mary,

Wow . . . what a mess!

My first thought is what I'm seeing here between Duck Butter and Top Spin. It's pretty clear that Top Spin has been sending signals that he's thinking of challenging for top slot. This pretty much went undetected by us humans, but Duck Butter bares her teeth and "postures" anytime he gets near . . . and if he gets too close she lunges at him. I'm sure this will come to a head soon and there will be a knock down fight that we will let happen unless (like you experienced) there are serious injuries to either.

If this is it . . . if Pippin has detected signals from Buddy of a take over . . . and Pippin being top dog would also cause the others to follow Pippin's lead (like in a pack) . . . how to fix it? Honestly, I'm not sure . . . I guess the first thing "I" would try (if it were me) is to let them heal up some, then meet on neutral ground (mom & dad's?) and see how they react. If either gives the typical submissive acts (like rolling over, bowing etc.) then maybe the concession ends it. If there is still a clear problem and considering the visciousness of the fights . . . I'd have to start thinking about permanent seperation.

Hopefully I'm all wet . . . but it does sound like pack dynamics.

Hopefully some others here will have a more cheerful suggestion.

Please let us know what happens,

Mark

[Penny's Aunt]

Is Katie near to coming in heat, by any chance? Some females get more aggressive then, sort of a canine version of PMS.

Otherwise, maybe a behaviorist can help you here. A dominant dog (or a wannabe) doesn't necessarily have to be that nasty to be top dog, esp if the victim isn't causing problems. Aggression usually shows up (IMO)when one dog is pushing the other. Unprovoked attacks could be something else.

I think you need some help here, before things get worse. Who's going to be her next victim?

[wireweiners]

No, Katie is spayed. Rita was in heat but had been out over a week before the fight started. There was none of the posturing while she was in heat. The only thing I can think of is that the puppies tend to play rough. One of them could have nipped the other, making that one yip. Pippin might have thought it was Buddy that hurt a pup. Buddy has never challenged Pippin as top dog. He's not as submissive as Wheeler but generally tends to stay out of Pippin's way. Whopper and Button are submissive to Pippin and Katie. The only change in the pack dynamic is Whopper's reaching puberty. (He's started lifting his leg!) and Pippin's being neutered. Could the hormone changes in Pippin be causing something?

I think Katie is joining in the fray because as alpha bitch, she is compelled to back the alpha dog in a fight. Otherwise, she and Buddy get along and she has never started a fight.

I live in a small town and there are no behaviorists anywhere near. Are there any online I could consult? Anybody know a dog psychic so I could ask Pippin what his problem is?

Mark, I'd be really careful about letting Top Spin and Duck Butter fight it out. Because of the size difference, he could kill her before you could intervene. I thought I never was going to get Katie off Buddy. I had to twist her collar until her air supply was cut off to make her let go. Buddy looks like Frankendog with all his stitches, staples and drains. Most of the injuries were inflicted by Katie.

[Mark]

Definitely will Mary . . . thanks for the reminder!!!!

Mark

[Roxane]

Hi All:
In the short time I have been a part of this great board, I have seen a high number of post about aggression.
I was, a number of years ago, attack by one of my own large dogs. As a result I know enough now, to know it is not a subject to be taken lightly.
There is a wealth of material out there, written by experts in the field. It is not a simple problem with simple solutions.
For instance, in a paper written for Cornell University College of Medicine, by Dr. Peter Bochelt, President of Animal Behavior Consultants, he list eleven (11)
classifications of aggressive behavior.
Among them, Dominance Aggression, Possessive Aggression, Protective Aggression, Predatory Aggression and so on.
Each classification has a different set of circumstances provoking the behavior, which can be asexual or sex related, an age factor and most importantly, specific methods of dealing with the problem, dependant upon the type.
We tend to use the terms "Alpha", "Dominant" and "Aggressive" interchangeably, without realizing they can be mutually exclusive.
So, in answer to the question, a big YES, there is much that can be researched.
Because of what I have learned, I would never permit my dogs, large or small, to duke it out. To me, I would be setting a course for disaster.
I hope no one has to learn the hard way, as I did. It was traumatic and sad. We had to put a beautiful dog to sleep because of his behavior and my ignorance.
Roxane

[wireweiners]

I agree with you Roxanne about letting dogs fight to "settle their differences". In my experience with dachshunds, they will fight until death if not stopped. When I was a kid we lost a female to a kennel fight. Rita's breeder lost a beautiful female to a kennel fight. All of my dogs are separated when I am gone. If one starts growling or posturing toward another, I will break it up and redirect them. I will reinforce my position by making them sit or down until I release them. I figure, I am the alpha so I'm the only one that can growl at anybody in my house. http://dachsie.org/ubb/smilies/smile.gif

Do you know where I could get a copy of that article? Is it available online? I would like to read it.

[Roxane]

Hi Wireweiners:
All of the papers I have on hand were the result of hard copy research. This was before the internet became such a valuable investigative tool.
I do not have the ability to scan with webtv, however, if you will email me, we can discuss my making copies and sending them to you via snail mail.
I wonder if any of the well known vet colleges have articles online? It might be something you would want to try and find.
In the meantime, let me know if you want any of the material I have.
Be more than glad to share,
Roxane

<font color="#00FFFF" font size="1">[This message has been edited by Roxane (edited July 17, 2000).]</font>

[loving two dachsie's]

Wireweiners,

I am so sorry to hear about your situation, I read this post for the first time today.

As Mark on the board knows, I am walking on egg shell waiting for this with my 2 dachsie's. My Ginger and my rescue Bailey both want to be top dog. Ginger snaps at Bailey every day, Bailey does not snap back but he insists on coming back to steal her toys, try to keep her from coming upstairs ect.... I am just waiting for Ginger to go nutso on him.

I do not know alot about these things but the people on this board seem to havbe alot of good sound advice to give.

I hope Buddy is feeling ok.

Linda

[wireweiners]

My mom called this morning to ask about his meds and told me he had found a tennis ball and brought it to her to throw for him. She had been rolling it a short way for him and he was retrieving it for her. So I guess he's going to live. He slept on the sofa last night at her house. My mom and dad really loves dogs and has 2 other dachsies plus the farm dogs, 2 catahoulas, a border collie and a chow mix. They all get along.

Everything has been peaceful since Buddy hasn't been around. Wish I knew what started it. Could use Dr. Doolittle right now.

Males and females usually don't fight. I don't correct my guys if one is agravating the other and the one being agravated decides to correct the behavior. For example if Wheeler is humping Rita and she tells him to get off her back (literally) I don't step in. What you have to watch for is the agressive posturing. Ears and tail up, appearance of standing on tiptoes, tip of tail vibrating, hackles raised, and growling. That is when it is time to tell everybody to back up and take a time out. It's a good idea to separate them and make them do a down stay or sit stay to reinforce that you are the boss. I just wasn't quick enough to prevent the fights this time.

[~8DachsieAngels~]

Wire i just thought i would tell u that this happened to me lastnight for the 1st time blood was drawn i know it was over the alpha postion because Buh-Buh turned 6mos yesterday ... they were fighting and i couldnt get them apart i finally grabbed them by the scruff of the neck and tossed em in their crates only a few small scratches but now im rotating crating them. That way they arent togather im thinking of putting a chain link divider down the middle of my yard and letting cactus on one half and Buh-Buh on the other... Anyways good luck and u arent alone ...lol seems as our boys are maturing at the same time ... http://dachsie.org/ubb/smilies/smile.gif

Jen