what exactly is a double dapple?

[oscar'smommy]

i keep seeing posts with double dapple and not to breed them. i have a dapple, and never heard of the 'color' until i got my pup. a friend of mine has a piebald, which i also had just learned existed. i had only seen black/red and red before....wow, i feel so out of the loop!
sooooo.. what exactly is a double dapple and why not breed them??? someone please enlighten me! :blush:

[Sausage Mom]

There is a fare amount of reading in this article but it does explain exactly what a double dapple is and why you should never breed one.
Duchwood Kennels (http://www.12many.com/duchwood/colorpat.html)

BTW, Oscar is just sooooooo cute!! Glad you were able to post some pics for us!! :cheer: :cheer:

Lisa

[kpm_tex]

These pictures are from the Dachshund Club Of America Web Site (http://www.dachshund-dca.org)

Dapple
http://www.dachshund-dca.org/dachsy%20scans/3%20dapple%20longs.gif

Double Dapple
http://www.dachshund-dca.org/dachsy%20scans/double%20dapple.gif
Double Dapples have large irregular patches of white. DD occurs when both parents carry the dapple gene. Double Dapples are very likely to be born with eye abnormalities (shape of the eyes, blindness, or even no eyes) and hearing problems to the point of deafness.

If you do a search on double dapples in the archieves you will find additional info on why this occurs when the 2 dapple genes meet

[kpm_tex]

Since the Double Dapple in the post below shows a dog that was lucky enough to be born 'normal' I thought a couple of pictures of those who were not so lucky were needed. These were 2 of Heidie's fosters Boone and EllyMae

Both have, correct me if I'm wrong Heide, sight and hearing problems.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v406/dhjonze/firstday064.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v406/dhjonze/firstday066.jpg

[SirOliversMom]

Every time I hear Double Dapple I cringe. Too much risk and so unfair.

[onebigmickeyfan]

They were not lucky and were born with vision and hearing issues.

http://pic17.picturetrail.com/VOL856/931426/6722230/84902494.jpg

Sammy on the left has a small bit of light and shadow vision which means he is almost totally blind and he is partially deaf.
Annie on the right is totally deaf and one eye is does pretty well the other is light and shadow.

They are my babies and they are living spoiled rotten loved lives but many others are not so lucky. Many are killed as puppies when the deformaties are found and others are used as breeders. Annie was a breeder that we were lucky enough to get out of the mill she was living in.

They are both such spoiled brats that I often wonder how big of brats they'd be if they had their sight and hearing.

[oscar'smommy]

oh, my. i had no idea. thanks sausage mom, i read that whole article, and now i understand! and thanks everyone else for the pics(and all pics are oh so adorable!) so i can visually see what dd is and what effects are if bred.
now, i am going to tell everyone i know who owns dachsies about this artice, so they can pass it along!

[Kim H.]

http://www.dachshund.org/article_double_dapple.html#who

which explains the genetics. A DD will look very random (the spotting will not be the same on both sides) whereas a piebald usually has very symmetrical placement of the spots. My Cassie is most likely a DD, but a very lucky one because she has perfect hearing and vision.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v617/rxkah/cass-1.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v617/rxkah/P101piecombo3.jpg

[Ditzy4TheDachsi]

Since the Double Dapple in the post below shows a dog that was lucky enough to be born 'normal' I thought a couple of pictures of those who were not so lucky were needed. These were 2 of Heidie's fosters Boone and EllyMae

Both have, correct me if I'm wrong Heide, sight and hearing problems.

/IMG]

Hi, this is Boone's mom, Jeri. Boone has pretty blue eyes and seems to see pretty well, but he is deaf. While Booney is a wonderful dog, I agree that double dapples should not be bred, and I would never purchase a double dapple. If you must have a double dapple, get a rescue--you will be rewarded with so much love!

[Heide]

and Boone both suffer the effects from breeding DD
Like Jeri said Boone can see, but is deaf.
Ellemae can hear some and is somewhat blind.
My Benjamin is blind and can hear somewhat.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v406/dhjonze/2005_0423_1310302.jpg
He is one spoiled rotten daddies baby :bowing2:

[Cindi]

It would be nice if people wouldn't breed FOR double dapples. Doubles, when used in a breeding program, do not pass on their infirmities - or so we have been told because the problems are a result of the doubling up on the dapple gene. Single dapples do not normally have the problems.

Although the DD that appears normal on the DCA website is a showdog, you will notice that his visible eye appears smaller. Most if not all DD's have some eye anomaly whether it is visible or not.

Cindi

[DoxieCrazy]

We have a piebald, Max, and a double dapple, Lilly.

Lilly came to us last year at the age of seven. She was used as a breeder in a puppy mill in Texas. These people intentionally bred two dapples so they could use the puppy (Lilly) for breeding. She has limited sight in one eye only. She's lucky, some DDs are born without eyes. Lilly was also diagnosed with epilepsy earlier this year.

Here's Lilly:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v43/DoxieCrazy/SillyLilly.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v43/DoxieCrazy/Lilly2.jpg

We adopted Max from a breeder as a puppy (before we were educated about rescue). He's a piebald. His mom and dad are solid reds.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v43/DoxieCrazy/Max.jpg

Lilly gets so much attention when we are out, people just love her white coat, but I work very hard to explain to as many people as possible that breeding double dapples is NOT a good idea. Anyone who does it intentionally does not have the best interest of the dogs in mind.

[blinddoxie]

My double dapple was born without eyes. I don't know a lot about the breeders that she came from. I don't know what kind of breeders they were, if they were BYB or what. They did not euthanize her when she first opened her eyes and the genetic malformation was apparent. She has had great vet care her entire life, and from the way she acts she at least had some socialization with humans. Though, she was kept in a cage most of the time for the first three years of her life. They obviously were not very knowledgeable in Dog Genetics 101. So I have to ask what kind of breeders they were?

KC

[Annie's Mom]

Annie Fannie, my 4-year-old rescue, has been neutered, and I would never breed puppies in any event, but I have a technical question. She is mostly a black and tan, but has asymmetrical, irregular splotches of gray but no white. Is that dappling, double dappling or merling?

I've incorporated Annie's fictional counterpart into my fourth novel, and I want to get this right. In the story, it's important that the breeder says the puppy shouldn't be bred. Should I add white to the fictional dog's coat to make her a double dapple? Thanks for the advice. Mary Doria Russell (Annie's Mom)

[Cindi]

Merle and dapple are synonymous. In our breed the gene M stands for dapple but in other breeds it stands for merle.

If the areas of coloration on your dog is grey/brownish grey/black then it is a single dapple. A double dapple would have areas of solid white and possibly the grey areas, too.

Either dogs could be bred but it is the intentional breeding FOR doubles that should be discouraged. Breeding dogs to simply make pets with no regard to the betterment of the breed ie not breeding inferior specimens regardless of their temperament being darling is not, IMO, a good reason to breed either.

Cindi

[lotsadox]

Lilly was also diagnosed with epilepsy earlier this year.



I heard someone talking at dog show about their double dapple (a rescue) having seizures and that this is not unusual. Has anyone else heard this?

[DoxieCrazy]

That Dachshunds are more prone to epilepsy. I'm not sure if the double dappling makes it more so. The neurologist we took Lilly to, never mentioned it.

Sorry I couldn't offer more background.

[shannon20_01]

Breeding two dapples, in my opinion, is just mean. You take a great risk in doing that since a lot of the puppies are born with problems. I've seen some that seem to have nothing wrong with them...but who's to say something major won't come up a little down the road.

I've also said I would never own a double dapple. I find it very cruel to breed for the double dapple with such great risks involved.

Buster is a regular dapple:
http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y57/shannon20_01/buster4.jpg

Jake is a piebald:
http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y57/shannon20_01/jakers2.jpg

[Dachshundrsq]

http://romandachs.com/3annieguardingpups08132005.JPG
This is Lori's rescue Annie. Note the pupils are offset, this evidently doesn't affect their vision. However dogs with small eyes often have severe visual problems if not blind and my husband has had to remove eyes on some DD that have small eyes due to disease.

http://romandachs.com/2sammy09022005.JPG
The Beautiful Sammy who is so much of a loverboy he steals your heart right away. He is also one of Lori's rescues. He sees shadows and some light, Lori told me he ran into the crates numerous times the 10 days that she kept the pups because we had moved them into the edge of the zoomie path. He really does well. I came into the LR and found him on top of the coffee table :D

[Ditzy4TheDachsi]

Mary, please let us know when your new book is in print. I would LOVE to read it!

[Tita]

Hello, i would like to wright an article about DD problem at Croatian Doxie forum.
People here, in Croatia, are not known with DD problems because we don't have DD.
Please, can anyone give me some photos of DD normal and with eye problems.
Feel free to wright about the dogs from photos.
Please, help me wright the article :please: :help:
I :pray: that the article will prevent breeding DD in Croatia.
Tihana

[Daphne'sMom]

I too have a double dapple. She is totally deaf and can see light and shadows. The breeder intentionally bred a dapple with a double dapple.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v717/Piggymom/March312006002.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v717/Piggymom/April42006.jpg

[Doxiegal]

Here is my Noel Hope. She was bred by a show breeder in hopes of making some big bucks off her coat :pullhair: It cost her- her eyes and ears.
http://i31.photobucket.com/albums/c386/badgerdogbren/Noel.jpg



Now here is my Lakota's son Snowball. He is just 10 weeks right now. I got Lakota recently from a breeder so he would not be used to produce DDs as I feared he would be. Sadly I just found out I was too late and Lakota was bred before he got to me. This puppy is with the breeder and she says he is Lakota's. He is totally blind. I wish I could be a proud Grandma but this is so sad.
http://i31.photobucket.com/albums/c386/badgerdogbren/Snowball_8wks.jpg

[Bailey'sMom]

Brenda; I don't know why, but I can't view the photos you put up; I can see everyone else's, but not yours. Just squares with a little red x in the corner. I know Dr. Neff is doing a big study on the dapples and double dapples to prove that it really is a genetic issue. People just odn't want to believe it; they'd rather take their couple bucks and run and the Heck with the consequences. I've seen this discussed several times before; never have I seen so many examples of it. This is so darned sad; there are enough problems with doxies that can't be prevented, without breeding purposely to cause problems. This is the saddest situation, but only when people quit paying the extravagant sums for them will breeders quit breeding them.

Thanks for hte education on this. I know it takes time for you guys all to post and put up pics, but maybe, just maybe, it will edcuate someone into not breeding their double dapple to another.

Gay and The Gang

[billytommymommy]

So does my Billy qualify as a double dapple? I didn't realize that there was a difference between the dapple with mostly black, and that with mostly white.

I can tell you with 100%certianty that he came from a BYB. I fear that if we had not picked them up the boys would have ended up in a bad place.

[Schatz's Mom]

So does my Billy qualify as a double dapple? I didn't realize that there was a difference between the dapple with mostly black, and that with mostly white.

http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b5dd11b3127cce90aa63f33ffe00000016108AatXDJs4ct2

Billy actually looks like a Black & Tan Piebald. I'm sure some of the more qualified people on the board can give you a better idea.

[kpm_tex]

Yep.. looks like a Black and Tan Piebald to me... a wet one... but a piebald none the less :D

There is a big difference between Piebalds and Double dapples.

[billytommymommy]

Thanks guys, we had Ernie when I was growing up, who the vet told us was a dapple, and his markings were the opposite of billy's (black with the silver speckles), so I never bothered to ask our vet. The boys are unregistered, as we got them from someone who had 2 left from the litter, and didn't want them. If we hadn't taken them I am VERY sure they would have ended up in the pound.

[blazeman]

In the picture Connie posted... I see a B&T Pie. In the picture in your signature... he looks dappled to me.

Have any more pictures for us to see? He could be a Dapple Piebald...

[billytommymommy]

Here are a few more pic's of Billy.
http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b6da32b3127cce88f6220fe89500000016108AatXDJs4ct2
http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b6da32b3127cce88f62203e89900000016108AatXDJs4ct2
http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b6da32b3127cce88f6220be89100000016108AatXDJs4ct2

Ps I swear we are not white trash, we were in the middle of moving.

[the Six Pack]

He looks dapple to me, but I know there are quite a few people with more expertise than me. Hopefully they can tell for sure.

[Me&DappledDuo]

He's DEFINITELY dappled- but most likely, a dapple piebald. Not good to be mixing patterns- but none of the health risks of double dapples.

He's gorgeous!! I just love those two's pictures. :hearts:

[kpm_tex]

I would agree dappled piebald.. the markings are too symetrical to be a Double dapple. The dappling was hard to see in the first picture... looked like light reflecting off his coat.

[billytommymommy]

Thanks, I too love their pictures and have a MILLION, but that was the best one of his coat that I had on the other computer.

Anyway, when I was reading the article someone else posted, alot of it sounded like him (large white portions esp on belly etc), and got scared. I guess it doesn't matter, as he is nuetered, and has sight even though he often runs into things.

I actually had a neigbor argue with me once that he "is NOT a dachshund!". She got mad when I asked her what the brown guy was, as they are litter mates.

[Stanley's Mum]

Just curious, I have been to the sites posted on this thread and overloaded myself on info in regards to dapples, DD, piebalds etc. Stanley was sold to me as a choc/tan mini. As my pics show he has a white marking on his neck to chest. He had blue eyes when he was a pup. I didn't get papers with Stanley as i had no intention at all to breed. He is a choc/tan isn't he? I am curious as to the white marking on him... that wouldn't make him dapple would it? His mother was the image of him and his father was black and tan? it's just been bugging me so i thought I'd ask.:confused: TIA

http://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h30/stanleysmum/100_0465Small.jpg

[kpm_tex]

A white mark on the chest is not all than unusual. Stanley looks to be a cute little Choc & tan. I believe one of his parents would have to be showing dapple for him to be a dapple and I don't think that is the case here.

[Cindi]

with Karen :) That is just a white stripe on his chest and many dachsies end up with that without being a dapple or pie. And believe it or not but all baby dachshunds have blue eyes. Usually chocolate and tan eye color changes to green or light amber.

Cindi

[Stanley's Mum]

:thanx: i thought so ...but it was bugging me and thought i'd ask. His eyes are green now, had no idea they were all born with blues!! :thanx:

[Alexis' Mommy]

Shannon, our dogs look a LOT alike! Here is a couple of pics of our soon to be little man....Mario

http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e372/dee3345/mario010.jpg

http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e372/dee3345/Mariotub.jpg

[Doxi-Holic]

Wow that chocolate dapple pup is to die for...such a cutie! Well, we have an Isabella, Double Dapple, Black and Tan, and 3 reds. The three reds we will never breed because they are rescues and have been fixed but we plan on breeding the Isabella and the DD...is that a bad combo? Our Isabella is a female that has some famous names in her line like Winborne and McCallie's. Her sisters from other litters are all beautiful (older). She has a relative out here in Phoenix that I keep in touch with. She breeds her Isabella male with reds and gets reds with white whiskers and toe nails and green eyes....a real trip to see! After reading this thread I am concerned about breeding my DD boy. I know he will be ok with our B&T but what about the Isabella?

~Lawra

[Dachshundrsq]

The fact that you are asking questions, feel unsure, have no idea WHY a red should NEVER be bred to an Isabella/Tan, which displays a total lack of knowledge for color genetics is a HUGE red flag that you have a LOT to learn prior to even considering breeding your dogs. Do you plan to show these dogs? There are SO MANY sub-standard dogs bred by Puppy Mills and BYBs, why would you want to add to that?? If your dogs don't meet the AKC Standard for Conformation, Aren't AKC Registered, Aren't Worthy of Showing, Perhaps you should rethink your future breeding plans or just find some better dogs that DO fit the above, get your feet wet in the ring and try to do things correctly. If making colorful exotic dogs that are easy to sell is your goal in life, you will likely succeed with what you currently have. Color, unless you have a deep genetic knowledge base, should be the furthest from your mind and your breeding program.
JMO, This is a good place to learn a lot, at least about doing things wrong, those who have made mistakes before you will certainly tell you about their mistakes. Everyone comes here with a different knowledge base and hopefully, over time they will learn either the correct way to go about doing things, or finding out that perhaps all of this is just too much of a hassle, should be left up to those who have done their homework and those who prove themselves in the ring and/or field. Trust me, many, including myself, have been standing right where you are right now.
FWIW, I have never heard of Winborne or McCallie's and I have done a lot of extensive pedigree research, so I highly doubt they are "Famous". Many people know my kennel name and I KNOW I am not Famous!
I hope you will PLEASE not take this the wrong way. Just spending a few minutes on each of the many dachshund rescue websites should let you know that even dachshunds have a problem with over population as well as poor breeding which is a HUGE problem, I am sure you wouldn't want to be added to the list nor would you want to do harm to the breed, but breeding without knowledge, does indeed, do harm to the breed.

[Lazydaisy]

This is a very interesting topic. I dont know daisy is a piebald or dapple or....I am sure she can see well. ( she is one year old ) She has two blue eyes and reacts to things quicky. ( for example, if i throw a toy, she can run to pick it up with no problems. ) I am not sure about the hearing......Sometimes she reacts to the sound but it could be the vibration? Her big ears move though...does it mean she can hear ? If she is deaf, her ears should not move at all?

[Cindi]

This is a very interesting topic. I dont know daisy is a piebald or dapple or....I am sure she can see well. ( she is one year old ) She has two blue eyes and reacts to things quicky. ( for example, if i throw a toy, she can run to pick it up with no problems. ) I am not sure about the hearing......Sometimes she reacts to the sound but it could be the vibration? Her big ears move though...does it mean she can hear ? If she is deaf, her ears should not move at all?

a dapple. I say that because you tell me she has blue eyes. I will tell you from the picture her eyes do not appear perfectly *normal* shaped/appearing to me but it could be the picture. I have never seen a dd with completely normal eyes. There has always been some anomaly to them but I can't tell you if your dog is a DD because I see that she has ticking which would indicate piebald also. Obviously her background should indicate she has both. Do you have a reliable color pedigree of her? As to hearing, you could test her but if she responds to something being said behind her or something being thrown from behind and to the side, she obviously has *some* hearing if not all of her hearing.

[vferraro99]

Every time I hear Double Dapple I cringe. Too much risk and so unfair.

I second that! Why people like to play with Mother Nature is beyond me.

[kpm_tex]

This thread has been open quite a long time and a lot of the posts and replies are over a year old. So, due to it's age we (mods and admins)thought it best to lock this one down. Because it contains some good information we will leave it here as a sticky.
From this point on if you have any questions regarding dapples or double dapples please feel free to by all means post a new thread.

Thanks!