Intorduced a Pyrennes yesterday and need some advice

[Heather]

Hi everyone, happy Friday.

Yesterday, a 135 lb Great Pyrennes came to live with us, us being 10 lb 2 year old shy and submissive Beanie, and 5 year old 18 lb stubborn as a mule Hansie.

Intro went ok, we did it out back in pretty neutral area, I used the clicker with Beanie since he has reacted so well to it. He growled and barked alot, and I tried to calm him, keep his attention, and proaise him when he approached Dobber (the pyrennes). Hans was ok, but I can tell there are going to be some dominance issues.

So into the house we went. Hans was pretty good. But Beanie would go NUTS. He would actually growl and lunge at Dobber. Can you picture a little 10 pounder lunging at this Pyrennes? Dobber is very gentle and basically ignored him.

Well, we usually seperate Hans and Bean when they eat, not with a barrier, just different rooms. Dobber was on the deck eating, and Hans was on one side of the dining room and beanie on the other. Hans walked over to beanies dish, and usually I just have to say Hans NO, and he backs off. Well, last night, he decided to move in and a fight broke out. I had to break them up, and beanie now has a piece missing from his ear. Not bad enough for a vet visit, but there was blood. I guess hans is feeling a little infringed upon and had to let beanie know who was boss.

So, later, dobber came in and beanie kept freaking out. I used the click/treat when he would settle, or I would get his attention, and this helped a bit, but my biggest concern is that he won't back down and dobber will go after him. Now this pyrennes is the gentlest thing i have ever met, but if you pushed me in a corner, I might bite too.

Any advice? I can't live with three barking dogs, and one freaking out all the time.

Dobber slept downstairs with his owner, and hans and bean in their crate in our bedroom which is normal for them.

Is it just time they need? What else can I do to make this easier on them?

PS. I wore a black courderoy jacket this morning that is now white, I can't believe how much he sheds.

Any thoughts?

[Mark]

Hi Heather - Happy Friday to you too,

I guess I have more questions than opinions . . .

Before Dobber (the newcomer, right?) came . . . who was top dog, Hans or Beanie? It sounds like maybe it's Hans and Beanie may be trying to establish himself as Beta. Hans & Beanie share a crate, is that right? Is Dobber a permanent fixture or is this temporary? "Out back" . . . is that your own back yard? Do Hans & Beanie acknowledge you as alpha?

I have a few thoughts, but wanted to make sure I understand what's going on.

Mark

[Heather]

Hi Mark,

We have a 6 acre back yard, so we went out pretty far so it was 'neutral'. Not sure it was totally neutral though.

Dobber will be permanent.

Hans is the Alpha dog, not sure if hubby or I are the alpha human, but generally, they listen and are pretty obedient.

Yes, Hans and Bean share a crate, and even when they are not in the crate, they nap together often. Althogh lately, I have noticed that it is more like Beanie naps next to Hans, and Hans obliges.

[Mark]

Hi Heather,

It sounds like the pecking order needs to be established . . . first and foremost you and your husband as the Alphas. There really can be no doubt in their minds about this! There are 3 methods of discipline that I know of that work very well: A squirt bottle with water to the head or face area (this is the only one I use on the MiniDachsies), an uppercut (chin bop as Tom calls it) or a newspaper (one section of a daily newspaper folded enough times to make it about 2-3" wide across the side of their mouth or on the snout(I only use this one on Top Spin). The behavior command must be given at the very instant they feel the discipline.

If the meeting area was not exactly neutral that may have been a bad start, but IMO can be overcome.

If the pecking order of the dogs is to be 1-Hans, 2-Beanie and 3-Dobber. That's the order in which you should do everything. Greeting, feeding, treats etc. If the order changes so must the firsts. (it sounds like Beanie may be thinking of taking a shot at top dog . . . maybe that's why Hans felt the need to assert himself at dinner time) Recently Top Spin took over as top dog from Duck Butter . . . so I changed everything from DB, TS, Masse to TS, DB & Masse. Even when I make posts now I list them that way (used to do it the other way) so it is now my habit to do everything that way. When I go downstairs from work I greet Char, then Top Spin, then Duck Butter and finally Masse. They view me as the top Alpha human, then Char & so on.

A few nights ago Top Spin challenged me which I met without hesitation with the uppercut method. It's not done hard to hurt them, but rather to clack their teeth together (well on him it has to be a little hard) http://dachsie.org/ubb/smilies/biggrin.gif . When the girls get out of line . . . I like the squirt bottle best. Whatever they're doing, even if it's aggressive behavior they stop immediately. Nowadays they stop as soon as they see the bottle in my hand.

There is some excellent information at: http://www.doggiedoor.com/twodogs.shtml AND http://www.doggiedoor.com/threedog.shtml which you may find very helpful.

The bottom line is that they do have to sort out where their position in the pack is and you (the human alphas) must support that order. Above all you are in charge no matter what.

Well I've rambled enough, but these are my opinions about what's going on.

Please keep us posted with the results to your pack and your thoughts. I hope some of this helps,

Mark

[Mark]

Hmmm, re-reading my post I need to add some things (like it wasn't already long enough) http://dachsie.org/ubb/smilies/lol.gif

So where did all that fit your problem? IMO a dogs relationship with their alpha human should be one of (in order) unconditional love, respect and (when necessary) fear. They love you always, respect your wishes & direction and fear the discipline by you if they're not obedient. Not a bad, oh poor little puppy fear . . . one that they know you mean what you say.

Letting them sort out the pecking order is desirable to a point. Bloodshed is crossing the line and they need to know from you where that line is.

A pack becomes happy when everyone knows their place . . . and when they do they're happy. And it doesn't matter where that place is - Alpha, Beta or Omega.

The discipline I mentioned is not just for other training, but also for showing them where the line is. For aggression as strong as you indicate, the "chin bop" may be the most effective. Our three have come close, but never a fight like that. The only real aggression we've had is the several times Top Spin has challenged my position. The uppercut ended it immediately.

I'm sure there are others here that have a variety of opinions. But it seemed like you guys weren't sure if you were the alpha humans. My thought was then neither are they.

Mark

[Heather]

Thanks Mark. I think Hans knows we are the alpha humans, just does not like it. He rarely challenges me.

The chin bop? I do recall it on another post, but can you be more specific? When would be appropriate to use it.

Today when I came home, I greeted Hans, Beanie, the Dobber. Then I let them all out on the deck, and brought my treats. I gave them out in the same order. And heres where it gets good....Hans actually walked away to more interesting things...it was as if he said ok, things are in order here, and went about sniffing around. I should mention that Hans it a TOTAL food hound, he will eat anything, anytime.

OK, get this, just as I am typing the paragraph above, Beanie comes in the bedroom and jumps on the bed, and pees???? What the heck is that all about? When I turned around and said no, and intended to pick him up and take him outside, he ran under the bed and would not come out.

Beanie was good tonight, my nephew was here, so we had to put him in his crate, but he was fine when he came out, no growling, no problems.

HMMMM, help!

[Mark]

Hi Heather,

First . . . the "chin bop" or "uppercut" http://dachsie.org/ubb/smilies/smile.gif

I'll just pasted it from Tom's post from when he learned it (he said it well), "You bop the dog with an upward blow on their chin and a very loud NO. NO should be a reserved word and only used to stop aggressive behavior." I usually do it with the fleshy circle formed by my forefinger & thumb when making a fist. The amount of force used varies depending on the dog's size. The object is to either clack their teeth together (preferred) or at the very least snap their head up some. Not forceful enough to do damage or actually hurt. For behaviors other than aggression I stick to the spray bottle.

Beanie's reaction is quite common when there's been kind of this new family addition that's been thrust on him. In a doggy like way. . . he feels betrayed . . . you have changed everything he knew. You have allowed this intruder to come & stay. I don't think it's revenge or spite . . . it's how they react to "this" situation by instinct. Duck Butter went through that for a while . . . us not knowing any better at the time, when we got Top Spin we just went out one day and brought him home. I don't remember how we fixed it . . . I think when "she" finally accepted him it fixed itself, but it was very annoying. Just lot's of patience and retraining yourself to watch for it and showing them that the house rules haven't changed even though the household has. Maybe someone else who had that experience can offer some opinions . . . at the time we really had no clue what was happening. Hindsight is 20/20. http://dachsie.org/ubb/smilies/biggrin.gif

Hans' reaction to the treat: If I understand right . . . he had to check things out before he would take the treat, right? I see that a lot in Top Spin now that he's top dog. His instinct is that as top dog he must secure the area to protect his underlings (Duck Butter & Masse or in your case, Beanie & Dobber) before taking his treat. This is a good behavior and when it happens . . . I make all 3 wait until he takes his treat first. By doing so you show that you approve & support Hans as top dog.

I hope I'm saying all this in a way that makes sense and if not, please say so. Lately my brain gets ahead of my fingers and I don't realize it till later. http://dachsie.org/ubb/smilies/dizzy.gif

Hopefully someone with more than my one-time experience with a new family member will jump in and offer an opinion as well.

Mark

PS- You say Hans doesn't like it that you are the alphas. What things make you think so?

[Penny's Aunt]

There is a herbal calming substance called Rescue Remedy that lots of people swear by. I think you can get it from health food stores. You might try giving it to whoever needs to calm down a little.

If that doesn't work, maybe even a tranquilizer from the vet?

Be careful how you deal with misbehavior. Some dogs know how to push your buttons, & if they think they aren't getting enough attention, will do bad things just to get you to react to them. They think a spanking & yelling is better than being ignored. So, I would tend to deal with misbehavior with total silence. If it doesn't get the desired effect, the dog should stop doing it.

It really sounds like Beanie is just having a Snit Fit, & that long nose is really out of joint!

[Heather]

I will check around for the Herbal Remedy, sound like Beanie could use a dose.

Beanie and I spent some quality time together today, we took a long walk alone, and spent some time just sitting in the grass together, away from the other dogs. He was better today, only one freak out. Come to find that last night hubby said he vaguely remember Beanie whining on the end of the bed (saying he had to go out I think) and when he came in by me, that is when he pee'd.

I guess I say Hans wishes he were to alpha human because he is SO stubborn. If he is sniffing something interesting in the yard, he would assume be dragged away than listen to me to come inside. I guess the more I think about it, he does respect us. He has only had one accident in 4 years, and that was the day we moved into a different house-he was so excited, he just could not hold it. Bless his heart, he tried to drag a towel over it.

Thanks so much for the advice. Tomorrow is obedience with Beanie, so that will be some more bonding time. I must say that without the clicker training, this might have been impossible.

I will work on the chin bop.