More Alpha Issues in Maine.....

[Mrs.F]

Help!
As many of you know I adopted 7 month old Maggie in April. There were skirmishes between Maggie and Penny (15 months old at the time) but Maggie quickly learned to submit. Things settled down and May through September we had domestic tranquility and the pleasure of watching our 2 dachsies play, eat, sleep and snuggle together pretty much 24-7. Maggie turned a year old in September and in early October began challenging Penny - not every day, but several times a week. Penny's always been pretty laid back and it looked as if she was going to back off and let Maggie become the Alpha dog, and I was pleased at the thought of things getting back to normal again. Then after one particularly long evening of non-stop small skirmishes (mostly because Maggie did NOT want to allow Penny close to me) the fights began to get very nasty and now Penny seems to be back on top. She's drawn blood several times (mostly Maggie's ears) and now has Maggie so cowed that she naps on the rug in the laundry room rather than with the rest of the family and gulps her meals in about 45 seconds just to throws it up 5 minutes later. (I feed them in different rooms now - with a closed door - and no longer leave a small dish of kibble out for the day.)
Maggie has lost quite a bit of weight and has grown quite timid and 'clingy'. Penny is scratching all the time, and has frequent gas and loose stools.

My vet says they're just emotionally upset and are heathy enough to weather a little lost weight, hives, etc. until they work things out. His advice is to let them fight it out (if I plan on keeping both dogs which of course I do.)
I trust him, but it's hard seeing Penny and Mags this way! Also, it's difficult not to play favorites. I know that this is the way of the dog world, but in my heart I feel Penny should just "be a nice doggie" and leave Maggie alone! (The kindergarten teacher in me no doubt.)
How long will this last? Is my vet right when he says it's unlikely they'll seriously hurt each other?
Is it really so wrong for me to say, "Penny, NO. We are nice to each other in this house!"? (According to Dr. K that's just prolonging this mess.....)

Miserably yours,
Heidi

[Krista]

Oh dear....well....

Have you discussed this with a behavorist? Even if one is not close enough to come to your home and work with them, meybe you could have a few phone consultations.

I tend to agree that they need to work out top dog position on their own, and that if you baby the beta or omega dog, it will only get worse.

Whoever seems to be the TRUE alpha should receive all things FIRST. If top dog changes, so does the firsts.

I am letting Rudy and Roscoe work out top dogdom on their own. Right now its Rudy, but Roscoe does challenge him. I let them, If I feel its getting too Rough, I squirt them with the squirt gun -no words siad - and they usually stop completely or tone it down. I have seen nothing worse than a few scrapes -no blood really.

maybe someone else will have some ideas for some books to read.

All I can offer right now is this site
http://www.doggiedoor.com

they have some articles and q&a on 2 and 3 or more dog homes. I don't agree with everything they say, but its a starting point anyway.

Keep us posted.

[Wienergal]

My heart goes out to you, Heidi. It was so upsetting to me when Farfel made his move to take over alpha status--and that battle was over fast. I have heard that two females will have more prolonged hierarchy battles than one male, one female, because in a wild pack, there is always an alpha male who steps in and sort of makes the final decision, which both females obey. No idea whether this is true...just what I've heard.

Krista's squirt bottle sounds like the right idea to me, and my vet seconded her advice about honoring their pack structure by treating the current alpha as the alpha. She goes in the door first, gets up near you first, gets treats first, etc. Otherwise, my vet says, the confusion will continue--because YOU are taking on the alpha male role and sort of putting your stamp of approval on what they have already decided.

It's my guess--but just a guess--that even when they draw blood, the damage won't be serious. When Farfel attacked Peaches, she was screaming as if she were dying, but all she had were small surface wounds on her ears. He had her by the throat, with her on her back, more than once, but all she had was a damp throat. They seem to know what these fights are about--and death isn't it.

I've recently seen a book called HOW DO I STOP THIS?, by a prominent doggy behaviorist named Ellen Kravitz. I haven't read it, but I've been told that it is excellent--very down-to-earth advice on all the typical difficulties.

I really understand how upset you are. I'm sorry and I hope the girls get this worked out soon!

Good luck!

--Pamela

[Roxane]

Heidi:
Only because of friends who had similar experiences would I suggest that perhaps now is the time for obedience classes.
We often think of schooling simply as a way of learning to respect the necessary commands.http://216.74.85.16/ubb/smilies/book.gif
In three cases I know of this situation of assuming and maintaing top dog position was getting out of hand. In all three instances, the serious vying for position stopped. It changed from attack mode to a simple snarl or growl, understood by both dogs. It made the owners able to keep both females without fear. These were very large dogs, able to do considerable damage.
Most importantly it put the owners in charge, without danger to either the dogs or themselves.
It might be worth considering.
Roxane, Greta & Baylea

[Mrs.F]

Thanks for the ideas and support.
Both Penny and Maggie have been to Obedience classes and do a nice job obeying me. (Thankfully! I'm not sure how I'd be able to eat, answer the door or phone right now if I couldn't put both dogs in a "sit - stay"!) They both seem to understand that I am the top dog - their issue is with each other.
I've been using water to break up the fights (the squirt gun isn't enough to phase them - I have to use a cup of water) and that works, but Dr. K suggested I try to ignore all fights until they reach their natural conclusion. Only when one gets really scared will she give the other the alpha position.
We've been extra careful about the snacks and food first, out the door first, etc. because that's been an ongoing issue since Maggie came to us in April. Snuggling is a new one though. Maggie's typically more stand-offish, always one to snuggle up close to your hip or thighs rather than wanting to be on a lap, and so they've both always snuggled up with me on the couch while I read or watch TV. Right now Maggie seems to be looking for reassurance or protection (more from my daughter and hubby than me) and when we coax her out of the laundry room she runs for the closest human. Penny will jump off my lap in order to chase Maggie off of someone else's lap. We'd been scolding her for that, but have let it go since my phone call with the vet.
Just before Belinda posted that she couldn't keep Maggie (Minnie) we were investigating getting a second dog and were advised by SO MANY people to get a male because females are notorious for fighting. Maggie needed us though, so we decided we'd just deal with the fighting when and if it happened. http://216.74.85.16/ubb/smilies/frown.gif Good thing I didn't know just how hard it would be!

Krista, how do I find a behaviorist? I called my vet's office after reading your post. They didn't have the name of anyone on file, but could call around if I wasn't able to find one in the Portland yellow pages or by calling local clubs and trainers. The trainer that we use is one of the people that cautioned me the most strongly against getting a second female. I called her last week (before contacting the vet) and her advice was to find Maggie a new home if I can't deal with the fighting, because "2 females will never settle down". She didn't offer to refer me to anyone else and I don't really want to call her again......

[Krista]

Heidi,

If your vet and the yellowpages turn up nothing, I would call the closest veterinary school or major univeristy. Someone there should be able to point you in the right direction.

You could also call vets in BIG cities and see if they could refer one to you.

A search on the web might produce something too -I'll keep my eyes and ears open.

[Mrs.F]

I'm almost afraid to say it but I think things are settling down a little bit......

No real skirmishes since Friday (it's Monday afternoon). We're doing very little cuddling though, http://dachsie.org/ubb/smilies/frown.gif I miss it but I'm sure things will settle down soon. I miss lying on the couch with a pup in each armpit!

Anyway, thanks for the good thoughts. I won't really feel like things are settled until Maggie puts a little weight back on and Penny stops scratching!

[Oscar's Mom]

I don't have any advice on this topic, but just wanted to say I am sorry to hear theres some sibling rivalry going on. I'm sure it must be heartbreaking and hopefully they will work things out soon.

[Wienergal]

Heidi, I'm sure your trainer is a perfectly nice person, but I found her response to your questions really offensive. Sounds as if she's saying, "Well, you didn't take my advice, so the heck with you!" I wouldn't take that too seriously--sounds like it's more about her ego than about your problem.

How are they when they're left alone? Or do you crate them separately?

[wireweiners]

No offense to your vet, but he/she has obviously never seen two dachsie "girls" go at it. They don't use the "B" word for female dogs for nothing. DO NOT let them fight it out. If they get in a real fight they will not quit until someone is hurt, BAD! Males will make a lot of noise but usually settle things without too much bloodshed. Male/female will settle things pretty easily. But 2 females will fight until somebody is dead unless you interfere. Your best approach is to keep them separated unless they are supervised, feed them separately, correct the agressor swiftly and harshly (You are the alpha) and make the timid one come into the room with the agressor. You can also take them for walks together in neutral territory. I had this problem with 2 of my wire girls. I kept both of them but I had to be very vigilant when they were together. They learned not to start anything when I was in the room but I couldn't leave them alone together until they were both too old and blind to find each other to fight.

[Mrs.F]

Hmmmm....Depressing news Wirewieners, but I must admit it sounds more honest than any of the advice I've gotten from "the experts" around here.
How did you handle petting/cuddling? It's next to impossible to pet one dog without the other getting ticked off. Will my stern response make that stop? I can't bear the thought of having to pet them in secret for the next 18 years!!!

During the school day the arrangement is Maggie in the kitchen pen, and Penny in the kitchen outside the pen. It's a nuisance for us, but both dogs seem happy enough with the arrangement. Several times I've come home to find them snuggled up on either side of the wire.
Wienergal, you are right about our trainer. With all our work at the nursing home and schools and those Dog Bite prevention messages on our public access TV station, I've sent lots of customers her way, too. Good thing I'm not one to hold a grudge! http://dachsie.org/ubb/smilies/smile.gif

[Krista]

See I have two males and while they may mount, growl and roll eachother -it has never really scared me.

I can see it might be different with 2 females. I personally would never get 2 girls, but I do know of cases where it has worked out so would never tell anyone to get rid of one of their dogs for that reason.

I have faith in you Heidi. You are a strong woman and they know you're the boss, thats the most important starting point.

If you do decide to speak to a behaviorist, many websites come up doing a search for animal behaviorist on yahoo.

[Mark]

I have to agree with Mary. Our alpha dog issues were between a male (Top Spin) and a female (Duck Butter), but it never came to bloodshed and TS took over without a knock down/drag out fight. Had it been 2 females . . . I'm sure I would have had to keep them from killing each other constantly. And yes, I also agree that it's time for the alpha hoomom to control what's going on!

You can do this, Heidi! It's one more way we show our love.

Mark

[wireweiners]

As far as petting and cuddling, I would put Sundae on one side and Dolly on the other and give them equal time. Sundae was the agressor and if she started posturing toward Dolly, I would give her a quick chop under the chin. I even used a muzzle at times until I got things under control. I also kept a crate handy so if Sundae refused to back off and settle down, she got time out in her crate. It was also handy if the phone rang or I had to use the bathroom. I could stick Sundae in her crate while I was out of the room. The crate was always near the sofa so Sundae wasn't isolated. It took a while before they could be in the same room alone and I never left the house without separating them but we managed just because I was more stubborn than Sundae and because both of them had temperment problems that would have prevented them from finding other homes. (They weren't exactly rescues but their breeder wasn't exactly reputable.)

We also had a female when I was a kid, who every now and then would decide she wanted to pick a fight with the other girls. She would start posturing toward one of the other girls and the only way you could stop her was to separate her from the rest of the bunch until she got over her attitude.