Chin Bop is making it worse?

[Heather]

Beanie has an aggression toward our newest canine member, Dobber (135 lb Great Pyrennes). He usually only acts out when Hans and Dobber start to playing, or when Dobber comes in from outside. sometimes it can be pretty fierce.

So I tried the chin bop, and when I do it, Beanie growls even fiercer and will moting his head toward my hand, I am now afraid he is going to bite me. He has never bitten anyone, but he is quite shy and skittish. the clicker helps, I can get his attention and have him sit, but what else can I do.

The breakouts are the worst when hubby and I and Hans and Bean are sitting on the couch and Dobber walks up to us. Beanie literaly flies through the air to Dobber face. Luckily Dobber is extrememly docile, and has never even flinched. He could have Beanie for a midnight snack.

Does anyone have any other ideas?

[Mark]

Hi Heather,

At this point I think your best bet is to get to a behaviorist with Beanie. Clearly the aggression is out of control and conventional , tried & proven self administered, methods are of no avail. A class similar to the one Tom (dutchman) is in with his pupper would seem desirable as opposed to the more costly individual meetings, but you may be limited to what is available in your area.

I wish I had a magic answer for you, but some dogs require special training and all the homespun cures in the world won't help.

Please let us know what happens, meanwhile we're sending lot's of behavior rayyyyyyzzz for Beanie,

Mark

[dutchman]

I would agree it is time to ask for some professional help. Ask your vet and if there are any dog clubs in your area call then for recommendations on trainers. No all good general dog trainers will be able to help with aggressive behavior so that is why it's important to ask for recommendations. General classes are the cheapest way but you might also need to have one or more private sessions so that the trainer can observer all three dogs together.

One possibility is that there is an alpha struggle going on and if you and your husband are not recognizing or respecting the pack order they dogs have established or are in the process of establishing you may be making the situation worse without meaning to do so.

I couldn't afford many private sessions with my trainer. A first visit with a referral from you vet is not bad at all $20.00. After that or w/o a vet referral she gets $100.00/hr. Our eight week 1.5 hour per week basic obedience classes are $110.00.

Good luck,

Tom and the boys (Frank and Tanner)

[Mark]

Hi,

I'm pretty sure that Heather and her husband have a clear a picture as possible on the Alpha situation and are being very observant and respectful of what it means . . . see thread in this forum titled "Intorduced a Pyrennes yesterday and need some advice" by Heather. It seems to still be in progress . . . or it hasn't been recognized and thereby reinforced by the human Alpha(s). In those regards you may have something there Tom.

In any case I think our suggestion to seek professional help is the best answer now.

Mark

[Heather]

When it was just Hans and Bean, Hans was CLEARLY the alphs, and we treated his as such with firsts of everything. However, the day Dobber, the Pyrennes, arrived, Hans and Bean got into a fight over food, where normally, Beanie would just shy away and let Hans eat his food (It was really my fault for not watching them closely enough-I just never expected Beanie to go after Hans)

Since then I have observed one occasion wher Beanie tried to Hump Hans, and Hans just sat there, leading me to believe that Beanie was taking command. But, when they play, Hans alwyas pins Beanie and 'wins'.

Hans basically could care less if there were a hundred dogs in the house, he is so easy going, and loves to sniff and snuggle with Dobber.

So, what else can I look for to determine if Beanie is in fact the alpha now.

I will definitley look into further training with beanie. I just finished basic obedience with him and my situation now is 10 times better than it would have been.

Thanks for the help.

Heather

[Mark]

Hi Heather,

Here are a few signs of submission. Rolling onto their back when the alpha is immediately present, allowing the other to be first when there's a choice and licking the face or mouth area (that's why many dogs lick the face/mouth of their owner).

Some signs of dominance are; clearly being protective (like hearing a noise and being the one that investigates while the others simply bark or follow behind), herding, humping and dictating decisions about just about anything.

You could have, as we do with 3, an alpha - beta - omega situation. That is, there's a pecking order.

When you tried the "chin bop" . . . was it hard enough to "clack" his teeth? If not try it again next time warranted and use more force. It won't hurt him . . . just startle the heck outta him.

I know he's confused, jumping from a 2-pack to a 3-pack, but he MUST recognized you as the human alpha. If it is still not working . . . seek a professional.

Good luck and please keep us posted,
Mark

[Heather]

Hi, you might not believe this, but as a last resort, I tried the water bottle for Beanie's aggression toward Dobber. Well, I did it once and it has 99% stopped. He gives a grumble now and then, but basically I don't have to worry about seeing little beanie hanging from Dobbers neck like a rescue barrel. I keep the bottle handy, and it has come in handy for barking as well.

Sometimes the obvious is so unobvious. This spring, I will continue Beanie's obedience traning, and I am sure it will just get better.

Thanks to everyone for you advice. BTW, I have confirmed Hans is the alpha, Bean is the Beta, and Dobber comes in a close Omega.

Happy Holidays.

Heather

[Mark]

Hi Heather,

That's great news and I know everyone there feels better now. I know that when all else fails, the sight of the squirt bottle in my hand stops whatever is going on. With Top Spin as the top dog, though . . . and his occassional challenge to my alpha-ness (is that a word?) http://dachsie.org/ubb/smilies/biggrin.gif, the chin bop (more of an uppercut with him) is the only thing that "resolves" the issue, probably because of his size and he seems to be smarter & more stubborn than the Dachshunds. I've never had to use the chin bop on the Dachsies . . . just the squirt bottle. I guess in hindsight and when I think about it . . . the only chin bopping I've done is for aggression towards me.

I know you feel great to have recognized the exact "pecking order", too. With the exception of an occassional mishap . . . I think your pack will do well from here on out.

Thanks for the update and I am very happy to hear that the issue is being resolved,

Mark