Pedigree Papers Problems

[OneCoolPup]

Three weeks ago we bought a miniature dachshund female from a kennel three hours away. We originally went there b/c this woman was selling her own puppies, but when we got there, all of her puppies were sold and she had one black and tan that she was selling for someone else. Over the phone she told us that her puppies for males were $125, females $150... and this one was $200 (b/c it wasn't hers) She said the dog had good showing background and she would probably be good for breeding if we wanted to. We asked if she'd take $160, and she said o.k. Three weeks and many phone calls later to her, we called the guy she sold the puppy for, and he said that he won't give her full registration for the puppy b/c we didn't pay him the full $250 (and the woman told us $200) and this was a selected puppy that he bought from a breeder in Texas! I guess he had to pay fees for her and didn't get his money back when the woman sold her for $160. There were no agreements signed either way, and no mention that we wouldn't get the full registration. He said we could register her with the CKC and all her puppies could be CKC. I guess I could still show her b/c she'll still be AKC and could be CKC too, but her puppies won't (if i bred her). Should I fight this and say that no one even said her price was 250 for the full registration. Or just be happy with the limited registration for AKC and register her with CKC too? I'm confused. The last dog i bought was strictly just a pet, and I paid a hundred and got full registration AKC for him.. and it just doesn't seem fair. any advice?

[~8DachsieAngels~]

I could say ALOT more about this whole thing but basically theres not you can do ... you took the pup home without the papers (big no-no) and now the breeder can do anything he/she wants unless you signed a contract stating that you got full registration. I mean maybe just maybe you could ask the breeder if you paid the other $90 would she give you full reg. im sure you would rather not but it depends on how much the full reg. papers are worth to you .. .most pet owners could carelss. Limited is good...unless you are gonna breed her. If you do work something out with the breeder make sure shes gonna see that you get those papers and they will be full reg. even if you have to drive there or have them fedex. (i dont really trust mail) but other than that if she decides that she doesnt want to give you full reg. she doesnt have to im assuming you didnt sign a contract or anything if you did sign something and she refuses then you can take the steps needed to enforce it if you want. Good Luck <IMG SRC="http://dachsie.org/ubb/cwmsmilies/cwm1.gif" border=0>

[kat_anne0531]

Sorry to hear about the situation. Something similar happened to us (but not quite as bad) with our puppy, Ginger. She is 16 months old, and she still is not AKC registered. The breeder that we got her from said that they filled out the paperwork correctly for her, but the AKC sent it back to us with missing information. The breeder did not actually breed the litter that Ginger was from; a family friend had done that. For some reason, missing information about the breeder was not correct, and we can't get that information now. I guess if we went through alot of pain we maybe could, but we made a decision not to. We never wanted to breed Ginger or show her--she is simply our little angel and baby and a family pet. So, we just let the matter drop and just knew that she was full blood and actually an AKC dog (just not with the papers proving it). That is all that mattered to us. But, I do understand in a way your situation ,and I hope that there is something that you can do to correct the situation.

[OneCoolPup]

It just seems so greedy to me that they won't give the full registration when someone else made the mistake. It seems like such a waste that if they thought she was the choice puppy,and has a good background,that they are willing to just end the pedigree here. I guess whether I decide to breed or not it's the principal of the point... but I thought it would be fun if I could get her into showing (give me a hobby)and maybe someday I'd want to breed her and have a house full of puppies! I wish i knew that if the ppl wanted to show her puppies if they would be able to with a CKC or if y ou need AKC papers for all shows. I suppose I'll have to make this decision pretty fast. http://dachsie.org/ubb/smilies/frown.gif

[~8DachsieAngels~]

CKC has dog shows too http://dachsie.org/ubb/smilies/smile.gif

Jen

[Cindi]

I'm confused. You have the papers but the Limited Registration block is checked? Or you don't have the AKC papers? Only the BREEDER of this puppy can legally change the status of the limited registration, if that is what you have. The BREEDER will be listed on the papers if you have them. THAT is the person you should contact to change the type of registration. IF this dog has gone through 2 sets of people before reaching you, there should have been 2 sets of transfers with her.
A dog must have full registration to be shown in conformation. However, you can show an ILP or Limited Registration dog in AKC performance events (except for field trials). So, you could do obedience, agility, tracking and earthdog with your dachshund and earn titles.
And I won't even give my opinion on CKC registrations.

[OneCoolPup]

I don't have the papers yet, the breeder has them, and the second person said that she will check the limited box if we don't pay an extra ninety dollars. Of course, I just don't have that kind of money and if i knew they wanted $250, i would just have walked away. If i wanted to spend that for a puppy i know local breeders that I could have gone to their homes and seen the parents - and the puppies would have been healthy. When I got this dog she was very skinny and had coccidia, and I'm going to pay $250? Now I'm just glad I paid the $160 for her b/c the woman asked for $200 and even if i paid that I still wouldn't have the papers! I don't see why the breeder has the right to go up on the price AFTER you buy a dog!

[Wienergal]

OCP, I'm totally confused by all the registration lingo--not my area of expertise, by a long shot--but I have to say that everything about this dog's background sounds fishy.

First of all, someone should have given you a five-generation pedigree when you bought the dog, so that you had a complete picture of her background. This is entirely separate from any registration papers. This dog was apparently sold twice--first to the "mystery man" who had someone else sell her for him (what's THAT about? Very strange!), and then to you. So it would appear that you have no idea where this dog came from. She could be from a puppy mill, a backyard breeder, or a kennel. Why was the man selling her? Did he buy her to sell? Why would he do that?

I would hope that you would not breed this dog, since you have no clue as to her background, which means you don't know anything about the health and conformation traits in her background. Having AKC papers wouldn't give you that information either. Basically, AKC registration means that someone has paid the AKC money to have the AKC send out a piece of paper saying the dog is registered. It's totally meaningless, as was proved on the "Dateline" program on puppy mills.

My advice is to let this go and to be much more careful the next time you get a pup. Don't even THINK of leaving without the five-generation pedigree AND a signed contract between you and the seller/owner.

[~8DachsieAngels~]

I think im starting to understand a little more OCP ... So the lady you bought the dog from didnt have the parents for you to look at at all?!? I think you are basically out of luck ... whenever you buy a dog the parents should ALWAYS be there at least the mother .... (sometimes ppl use stud dogs) you should get a 3 to 5 gen. pedigree, shot record and blue form for reg. (already filled out by the breeder) at least... seems as though you got none of this ... did you sign any kind of contracts at all...(ie: spay/neuter agreement) you cant go back on these ppl because they didnt give you the papers you should have gotten them the day you where there ... now they by law dont have to give them to you if u didnt sign a contract saying so before you left...tech. they dont even have to give you the limited reg. i would take that and run if they will give it to you... that whole operation sounds a bit shady... when i bought my dogs i went to the breeders house in most cases we sat down and talked i looked at the pups chose the one i wanted and then she lectured me on proper pet ownership etc. and made me sign a bunch of contracts saying that if i could no longer keep the dog i would return it to her etc. and that if i bred this dog (in my case) that i would take care of the dog with proper vet. care thru the entire pregnancy etc. and that if the pups could not be sold that i contact the breeder for help in finding homes for the pups and i wouldnt sell the pups in the newspaper etc. and there was alot more she went over with me. Seems as though the person you got your dog from skipped everything... alot of ppl will lie to you and tell you a dog is show quality (its happened to me) just to sell it quick and for a little more money just because a dog may have a ch. or 2 on its ped. doesnt mean anything ... did they show you the parents pedigrees at all? Grrrr this person did you way wrong... just love your baby as your have been because i seriously doubt that you will ever get full reg. papers and as Weinergal said you know nothing about the dogs background so it wouldnt be a good idea to breed it ... of the dogs i have that i plan to breed in the future i know at least 3 gens back on them and i have seen the dogs 3gens back i have 5gen peds on all of them and know the breeders well and talk to them at least once every month or so ... they call to find out how their dogs are doing. I got my 1st doxie kinda like you only there was NO middle man i got it from the newspaper like many ppl have... before i knew very much about proper breeding etc. i got a real sweet dog but he has a roach back and is kinda leggy ... i wouldnt breed him ... that would be my advice to you http://dachsie.org/ubb/smilies/frown.gif Just keep the dog as a pet ... $160 is a good price for a pet pup... the dogs i got to breed cost me around $700 only because the breeder tacks on a extra fee for buyers wanting to breed (which most are very picky about) this keeps just anyone from buying one of their dogs to breed. I got Sunni a little cheaper than that because her dapple markings were uneven so she knocked her price down to $600 for that... (but thats only after i had already bought Rosie from her and she knew me)
Jen

<font color="#00FFFF" font size="1">[This message has been edited by ~8DachsieAngels~ (edited September 09, 2000).]</font>

[Cindi]

8Dachsies....the breeder 'knocked' money off because the dog's dapples were uneven? There is no way to control the placement or amount of spotting in a dapple. And evenness or unevenness means nothing except to the buyer's eye. You got a deal if someone did that for you. I truly believe you got the 'discount' for being a friend/frequent buyer.

OCP - if the man involved in this is not the breeder (you stated he bought the dog from a breeder in TX - Lord knows what type of breeder this person is to allow the man to 'broker' this puppy) and neither is the woman you picked the dog up from then neither of these people are legally, AKC rules, allowed to check the limited registration box. If they do, you can report their behavior to AKC along with the notation that there were NO supplemental transfers included in this deal and they most likely will have their AKC privileges yanked or at least fined. However, if you are no longer dealing with the blue slip from the puppy litter registration and you are already dealing with a registered dog (name is already assigned) it will either be a full registration certificate or a Limited Registration certificate. The different types have different color borders. If the dog is already registered Limited, ONLY the breeder can change that registration type. However, it sounds as if you are still dealing with a blue slip (original puppy registration form) and you still have options. AKC would also like to know about people and their illicit behaviors for selling a dog for one price with papers and one price without. That is not ethical and AKC does not approve. If it is eligible for AKC registration and the paperwork has been done, they expect the resulting registrations to be filed with them (more money for them but it also gives you a better leg to stand on to get those papers). However, I do agree with the others that this dog most likely is not good for breeding purposes and the history of the dog is going to be suspect.
One other thing....I don't know what area of the country you are located but around here a pet miniature goes for $400 on a spay/neuter agreement. No reputable breeder advertises in the paper here either. They don't need to do so.

[~8DachsieAngels~]

http://dachsie.org/ubb/smilies/lol.gif Yes your probably right Cindi ... the breeder and i have grown to be quite good friends ... she is picky about her dachsies chrome ... her conformation is very good but because her dapples were uneven she would not show her because the standard states that a dapple dachshund she have even amounts of dappling no color should predominate... so Sunni is a field trial girl but hopefully her puppys will be in the conformation ring if bred with the right stud. http://dachsie.org/ubb/smilies/smile.gif

On this subject OCP i might add that if you plan to breed your dog a mentor would be a really cool idea ... I have a wonderful woman and the breeder of 2 of my dogs helping me learn the ropes ... i find it very reassuring that she is there to answer my questions with good strait forward knowledge ... she will also be here to help me when we have our 1st litter to give me some much needed moral support .... and drive in the event of emergancy... even though i have seen dachshunds born once before and have raised beagles with my dad ... it will still be nice to have someone here to help with things. You never know whats gonna happen... always best to be prepared. http://dachsie.org/ubb/smilies/smile.gif

Jen

<font color="#00FFFF" font size="1">[This message has been edited by ~8DachsieAngels~ (edited September 09, 2000).]</font>

[Cindi]

If her conformation is good you really ought to put her in the breed ring!! Although it is in the standard that way there are many dapples finished that are not evenly marked, not very dappled, overly dappled (IMO), barely dappled. If you are at all interested you should give it a shot http://dachsie.org/ubb/smilies/smile.gif Good practice, too! for the puppies that come along that can make it in the breed ring.
And I know that the people who worked on the standard were very devoted but some weren't really 'color' people and didn't have a clue there is NO control of the spotting.

[~8DachsieAngels~]

Well right now we are really working hard in the field ... i would love to show her in conformation but i just dont have the time for both right now ... but maybe next summer when my sons out of school its hard to do shows and stuff when u have a little one that you need to get up and off to the bus everyday... i do plan to have a handler show one of her pups for me if we get one that we want to show. Perhaps i may have a handler show her next summer but she still needs alot of obedience work etc. before she would be ready ... shes got the basics down but nothing advanced i would love to do agility too... but im not sure how she would do in that shes not a real jumper... but Rosie on the other hand is ... So we may get her into that after shes done field also. Thanks for the vote of confidence http://dachsie.org/ubb/smilies/smile.gif

Jen

[Heather]

OneCoolPup:

I think you answered your own questions when you asked:
"It just seems so greedy to me that they won't give the full registration when someone
else made the mistake. It seems like such a waste that if they thought she was the
choice puppy,and has a good background,that they are willing to just end the
pedigree here. "

These people you bought the dog from don;t sound like reputable breeders and if I may give my opinion, you should think long and hard about breeding a dog that you don't have a history of.

[OneCoolPup]

I would like to try to get her in the show ring. I have no idea how to even start though. I was looking on the web for a schedule to see where and how often there are dog shows around here, and it seems to be few http://dachsie.org/ubb/smilies/frown.gif They're having a Brittany club show in october not too far away (does this mean it's for britanny spaniels?) I was thinking of going and watching (do they let you just go to watch?) See, i know nothing about showing! It's hard to find the info i need b/c there is nothing in this part of the state so I would have to travel for shows or training. If you hear anything about shows in Arkansas, let me know http://dachsie.org/ubb/smilies/smile.gif

[Cindi]

Arkansas? My goodness, you could go lots of places to show but I doubt if too many of them will be just a day jaunt for you. In the south it usually means a weekend away from home and a motel stay when you do dog shows...unless you have a motorhome or like to camp you will need a motel room.
Go to Jack Onofrio's webpage, I believe it is onofrio.com, and you can look at 'premium lists' (probably under 'show information') for upcoming shows. Email them that you wish to be on their mailing list and they will start mailing you the premium lists in plenty of time for you to enter.
I would say that all dog shows, whether they are limited to one breed ie the Brittany Spaniel specialty you were talking about, or are all breeds welcome the public. AFter all, what better way to educate people to the proper way to buy a dog and the proper way any particular breed is SUPPOSED to look.
Are there any all breed clubs in your area? AKC can tell you that and they, too, have a website. Some of them have 'handling classes' to teach you and your dog how to do conformation shows. All the dog needs to know is how to trot on a loose leash, how to stand and they must allow a stranger to go over their body, examine their conformation and teeth and external privates (counting you know whats in the case of males) without moving....much. Obedience isn't really necessary; at least not formal obedience. The hard part of the education is for the human partner to learn how to show the dog off to its best!! It truly can be an art form to show a dog.
Fall and spring are the dog show seasons for the South so start looking for those upcoming shows and get your girl started.
And did you know there will be a field trial put on by the Houston Dachshund Club near Buna, TX (spelling of the city might be incorrect) in December?

[OneCoolPup]

I found some all breed shows they hold that are just about two hours from here. Though to take any sort of training classes would be a two hour drive too. See, life would be much simpler if I just liked cows :P I wouldn't have to travel at all to show cows! well, I'll see what happens. First i have to worry about getting the AKC papers.

[Penny's Aunt]

Like a lot of people, you bought this pup on a whim & got stuck. Just write it off to experience. You'll know better next time, won't you? There are tons of dishonest people out in the dog world.

Since the woman didn't even OFFER you the pedigree or registration when you took the dog, there simply may not BE any papers. Maybe you didn't know to ask for them, but the woman DID know what she was supposed to do (legitimately) & DIDN'T DO IT.

Just because you sent another $60, or $90 or $500 doesn't mean you would actually GET the papers. And, from the sound of these people, if you DID get papers, they might not have anything to do with the pup you actually bought.

Next time, do your homework FIRST. Like marriage, buy a dog in haste, repent at leisure.

BTW, regarding dog shows: find out the name of your local kennel club, & contact them about all-breed dog shows & dachshund specialty shows. They know all that stuff because they organize a lot of it.

<font color="#00FFFF" font size="1">[This message has been edited by Penny's Aunt (edited September 12, 2000).]</font>