Fighting dogs. PLEASE HELP!!!

[2DogsLong]

I'm faced with a terrible decision and I have to make sure I have exhausted all of my options before I do anything I might regret.

I have had Frankie and Oscar for 4 years in December. They are a week apart in age and have been together forever. They are neutered male tweenie smooths.

I know I made a lot of mistakes along the way- starting with the choice of breeder and getting 2 at the same time, but hindsight doesn't help much now.

The boys started fighting at 8 months old and they have had maybe 8 in their lives with at least as many broken up before contact was made. The fights are vicious and have resulted in trips to the emergency vet on a couple occasions.

I consulted many trainers when it first started and was told by some that I would have to find a new home for one of them but one guy explained that they were fighting for dominance and I had to let them fight it out. There is no way that I can watch as one of my dogs clamps his mouth over the other's eye and ignore the screaming when there is no sign of it letting up.

Dominance was established between the two and I do everything to respect the delicate balance. Oscar MUST be treated as alpha or his hackles go up and he postures and if Frankie doesn't submit a fight will start. Frankie always submits EXCEPT if there is food involved.

Up until last week there had been no fights for 2 years.

Last week I was walking the boys on a splitter lead and stopped to talk to a neighbour. There was a bone on the road that Frankie saw and he started growling and his hackles went up. Oscar knows how Frankie feels about food and would probably have backed away from Frankie and the bone if he could have - except that they were on the splitter and he couldn't. My stupid instinct was to pull the leash to get the dogs away from the bone which actually pulled the two closer together.

The fight started and there was blood and screaming from Frankie. I tried to pry Oscar's mouth from Frankie's eye but there was no way. A neighbour came and sat on Oscar and tried to at least hold his head still (because he was 'ratting' with Frankie's eyelid in his mouth). He strangled Oscar until Oscar finally let go to be able to breathe. There is NOTHING you can do to separate them when they fight. They are acting on instinct and are almost crazed.

We went to the emergency vet and fortunately Frankie's eye wasn't damaged. Both dogs were cleaned up and given antibiotics. I had stuck my hand in Oscar's mouth and was bitten really hard. He clenches on. I had some very sore fingers for a couple of days.

I reintroduced the dogs the next day and Frankie submitted to Oscar and they were cautious but friendly again.

I took the dogs to the cottage on the weekend and was swimming with them on Saturday morning. I was helping Frankie onto the shore and Oscar swam up from behind and attacked him. I had to hold them and get them separated so they didn't drown each other. I ended up at the hospital with a split finger. Hours before, they were playing with each other.

The first fight last week I could justify. 2 dogs, 1 bone, no escape. The second I can't. I remember them getting growly with each other when swimming last year. Oscar is a good swimmer and they were nearly to the shore. I don't know what went on in his head.

The dogs are totally obedient with me. There are no dominance issues there. They work for every treat and they usually obey every command. I do spoil them by letting them sleep in my bed and they are allowed anywhere in the house.

I have always maintained that Oscar is a jerk. He would like to be an only dog and is bossy and aggressive towards other dogs. He is very needy with humans and very jealous. Frankie is stubborn but generally a good-natured submissive boy.

They have been through lots of change in the past couple months including the addition of another dog (but she totally ignores them and me and is no threat to anyone). Their human dad moved out and my new beau is over a lot. They visit their dad on occasion and had actually spent the day with him on the Tuesday before the bone fight. If these fights had been their first I would have used the upheaval in their lives as an excuse but I really don't think it would have been different if nothing had changed.

So now I am faced with some decisions. Do I find a new home for one of them? If they fight again, do I not step in? Can they be reprogrammed not to try to kill each other?

I'm very happy that I founded a rescue group for Dachshunds in Canada. I never thought MY dogs would need it.

Unless the ex takes Oscar, which may be an option, I would have to find a home for Frankie because he would adapt better. Oscar has never bitten anyone but I suspect that he would bite a child if he was teased. I would not trust anyone else to manage Oscar. He is an angel one minute and a devil the next. If Frankie had to be rehomed and I was left with Oscar I would really resent him. Frankie is my baby and this isn't his fault. I know I shouldn't resent the dog but I'm only human.

Can taking them to more training classes (they have 2 levels done) solve the problem? Their problem is not with me, but with each other. Sometimes jealousy causes the fights ... could lowering Oscar's position in the pack in relation to me make him less jealous? No more sleeping on the bed or sitting on my lap? If that is the answer, I might rather see one go since cuddling with them is one of the reasons to have dogs and I'd hate to see them locked up all day when I'm at work then locked up at night, too.

Is there a drug that might help Oscar stop stressing about his position over Frankie and to chill a bit?

If I let them battle it out, would they stop before one dies? It sure doesn't look like they would. If Oscar doesn't stop when Frankie is bleeding and screaming and not hurting him at all, I don't know when he would stop.

I just want things back to normal with my happy dogs. I'm even a bit afraid of them after they put me in the hospital. They are posturing and always verging on a battle. From past experience, this will die down in time but I just don't know what to do if it happens again.

Suggestions are most appreciated! I don't want to lose one of my boys but I can't live like this.

Sue

[dutchman]

I don't have an immedate answer but you might want to check out the following web site http://www.k9shrink.com/ Dr. Clar is very well respect and may know of a behavioral specialist in your area. A good behavioral therapist has knowledge beyone that of an average trainer and specialises in problems like the ones you are experiencing. It sounds like you have taken many of the right steps. If you are forced to give one of them up I urge you to consider surrendering one to dachsund rescue as they will be better able to screen potential families that you would most likely be able to do on your own.

Good luck and best wishes,

Tom and the boys

[Doxiegal]

Wow, sounds like quite a fight! I have been so blessed with the crew I have. I have never had even one fight. I don't know how I would handle it. Is this common between boys? I am planning on a new boy in a few months to even out things around here. We have two girls and a boy right now. Am I looking for trouble? Would it be better to get another girl? Any suggestions? Oh, by the way... The crew consists of a female mini Dachshund at 16 mos. (the Alpha) a male tweenie Dachshund at 4 1/2 months (spoiled baby) and a female German Shorthaired Pointer (thinks she is a Dachshund) at almost 2 yrs. We want another GSP for her. She has an identity crisis. We assumed the right match would be a nuetered male GSP. My husband has even considered breeding our GSP to get one of her own. (I don't like the idea of all those pups!) I would prefer to rescue. All comments and/or suggestions appreciated.

Brenda : ) mom to Fraulein Isabella, Gretchen Victoria & Frankfurt Dijon

[Krista]

Sue,

I'm so sorry you are going through this. I have heard of the same kinds of issues from people with 2 female littermates, so I doubt its the gender, but more the personalities of the littermates that lends to this fighting for status.

I agree with Tom in that a consultation with an experienced animal behaviorist is in order. I think they can give you a better idea of what is really going on, and what things might solve it.

In the meantime, I'd keep them separated whenever you cannot observe them, perhaps give each one their own room or two to hang out in when you are gone.

If I were in your shoes I think I'd be more inclined to keep them separate all the time than give up Frankie, if the ex will not take Oscar. I just think that would destroy what relationship you and Oscar do have if you could no longer have Frankie. That would not be the best situation though, it would be terribly hard to do....I don't envy you at all right now.

I do really appreciate the work you have done in founding a dachshund rescue in Canada. I know that those who work with you will be sympathetic and helpful to your plight should it come down to giving one up. I just wish I had better advice and could be more helpful to you.

Brenda, I'd stick with a neutered male for your next choice. I have heard several trainers say that they feel the worst fights ever usually occur between two females, as opposed to neutered males. I have two neutered males and they are best buds. Really, I think compatible personalities are much more important than gender when choosing a new pack member.

[2DogsLong]

I think that temperment more than sex matters when adding dogs to your house. I know people with all combinations of dogs and each would swear that they have chosen the best. I think you are wise to go with rescue unless you are a professional breeder. A good temperment isn't even the tip of the iceberg when looking at the considerations needed before breeding dogs. Most rescues have a trial period to make sure the dog fits in your family (be sure to give him a fair chance- there are likely going to be some initial pack issues) and insist that the dog be returned if there is ever a problem.

I contacted a trainer who told me to use a noise stimulus to break up the fight -- like banging pots together. I'm going to get a personal alarm and blast it if they start to fight. It is easier to carry around on walks than a couple of pots.

He said that there are dogs who just don't get along but thinks that some attitude modification is what they need. He is coming over next week to meet the dogs and evaluate them and create a plan for me. Of course, the dogs are now best buds again but who knows what will set them off the next time.

I have my fingers crossed that the answer is something I can manage and still enjoy my dogs.

I'll update you after the meeting.

[dutchman]

I hope everything works out. It's great you are seeking professional advice on this matter.

Good luck,

Tom and the boys (Frank, Tanner and Dexter)

P.S. I suppose to show proper respect for my boys pack order I need to move Dexter to the left. He is the alpha dog. Right now the boys are listed in the order they joined my home.

[Addie's mom]

I would also discuss the situation with my vet. One of the girls (Minnow) was extremely "bone" possive and avctually hurt Addie twice due to fights. It would take both my husband and I to seperate them and we became quiie concerned should a fight start while we were gone. The vet started her on a homeopathic herbal mix that was supposed to help with aggression but didn't in this case. We, after much thought and discussion, started her on doggie paxil and we have not had any further problems. It has not made her groggy or less active it appears to have just mellowed out the aggression... she has even stopped hunting the cat, thanksfully. I certainly wouldn't suggest that this would be your solution but it has worked for us and allowed us to keep all the girls together. Good luck with whatever you do.

[2DogsLong]

I'm visiting the vet tonight to discuss any medications that could help and the pros and cons. I'm going to try retraining before I put him on medication. Perhaps he can learn adjust to the stable instability of my life. If he was human he'd have OCD for sure. Obsessive and compulsive to an extreme.

I feed the dogs Wellness which they seem to do best on. I've considered a raw diet for them but I finally found a food that works with Frankie's allergies and I don't want to change again.

Thanks for your support. After a deep breath I see that there are enough options out there that I am a long way from having to give one up. I'm sure that medication would calm Oscar down. If you've never seen dachshunds try to kill each other ... well... you're lucky. I feel for those badgers.

Dogs. Can't live without 'em.

[Doxiegal]

Well two Dogs Long, I hope the retraining is successful. Medication is usually so hard on the organs. Other problems can develope. My Dachs only play (cross fingers and toes) fight so I have never experienced this. I do have an issue dog though so I know what its like to live with a "disorder doggie" My female was abused prior to getting her. She was 8 mos. when I got her and now 16 mos. and still a reck emotionally. She even has to go into the bathroom with me and will cry uncontrollably if I leave her for a moment. She trusts no one else. If you walk too close to her when she is on the floor she will yelp like some one has kicked her. (because someone obviously had) She is bearly nine pounds so it must have been awful. She shows some improvement but I think the emotional scars will remain. I just love her and love her and time will tell. God bless you with your crew. : )