Gunther is in pain despite prednisone

[gunther's mom]

Hello-I'm fairly new to this forum. My nine year old dachshund had been hospitalized for observation/diagnosis this week because he suddenly started screaming out in pain. He was in so much pain that he was panting and his whole body was extremely tense. We trust our vet a great deal. He took films and didn't see major disc disease on the films but says it is classic in its presentation. Vet started him on Prednisone 2.5 mg twice a day for three days, then 2.5 for three days then 2.5 alternating.
Tonight he has been periodically yelling out in pain despite the Prednisone (though this has decreased a bit after his second dose today.) I am very concerned. Seems to be in the neck area.

Certainly I will read up as soon as I get off computer-but could someone give me feedback.? Any other analgesics helpful?
Success rate of surgery (though it's not been suggested)?
He is very overwieght and we know that doesn't help. Thyroid tests are pending. But the main issue of course is the pain.
Any comments at all would be appreciated.

[Mark]

Hi GM,

That is too strange. The symptoms indicate some form of Dachsie back problem, but the xray is not always conclusive . . . have they done a Mylegram? The problem with weight is also contributory to back disorders in our furkids . . . but to find no evidence of IDD baffles us. I don't think analgesics are the answer until more about *what the problem is* comes to light.

It sounds like Gunther is home now and we hope crated and kept totally inactive . . . with the only activity being carried out to go potty?

I will be very interested to read any other posts . . . or to hear the final results from your Vet. Has he called in or referred you to a specialist? That is usually a must in these cases.

In addition to the feedback you will get here there is a great deal of specific info at http://www.dodgerslist.com including stats on surgery success rates.

We're sending a ton (or two) of those Dachsie healing RAYZ.

:rayz: :rayz: :rayz: :rayz: :rayz: :rayz:

[gunther's mom]

Thank you so much for your speedy reply. Yes,I too expected something to show on X ray given the severity of his symptoms. No a mylegram hasn't been suggested, nor had crating. I certainly have been reading about crating,but the vet did not suggest it. Naturally I'm calling back tomorrow. (We could've taken him to the ER but they don't know him at all. Certainly will do this should pain persist throughout the night.)

It's such aan odd thing that when Gunther goes to the vet his pain decreases, so perhaps the Vet could not fully appreciate the degree of the issue. (I guess the adrenalin kicks in while at the vet.) Thanks again-I don't feel so alone with this. I do hope there is something we can do.

[Mark]

Hi again,

You should (must) start crating immediately. This will be key regardless of the final outcome. He should only be out of the crate to be *carried* out to go potty and then right back in. He should also eat in the crate.

Second . . . get a referral to a neurologist. Time is extremely important, so it is essential that this happen ASAP! If he doesn't have one he refers to . . . please find one. Either at an emergency clinic or a teaching Vet hospital. Most *family Vets* know of IDD, but most are just not equipped in experience or equipment to treat it properly.

When our Wimpy had back problems he always seemed to *get better* when at the Vets, too. And there was nothing in his xrays either. It took a Mylogram to determine he had cervical disk problems, which did require surgery and he did fully recover :D

If, by chance, it turns out to be something other than back problems . . . no harm has been done by taking the appropriate precautions described above. :)

Please do keep us posted . . .

[dutchman]

Mark has already give a great deal of good advice. Did the ver do a toe test to check how gunther reacted? The toe test is where they turn to foot so that the toes are folder under. A dog with no spinal problems is unlikely to let their foot remain in that position a dog with back problems will either leave it there or turn it over slowly. I agree a neurologist is the best specialist to seek advice from and second to that might be an orthapedic specialist. A major hospital either a private facility or a teaching hospital are most likely to have a neurologist on staff.

Suscess of surgery is totally dependent on the extent and if a sever injury exists the time the injuy has existed. Only a skilled specialist can give you an educated guess. They will only offer their best estimate for a good outcome after they complete test such as a milogram and possibly a cat scan. In some cases the pressure in the spinal column can be too great for the dye used in the milogram to migrate to the sight of the injury. When m little girl Aggie (a 9# mini) went in for emergency surgery that was teh case. A good surgon will discuss the possible outcomes and what difficulties you might face following surgery. No sense dwelling on all the good and bad things that can happen till you know for sre what is the source of the problem.

I lost aggie to complications as her condition went down hill after one optimistic dayfollowing surgery. In her case she went from no major sympthoms to complete paralysis and loss of most if not all deep pain response in less that 30 hours. There were some signs I didn't recognise that existed for a few days before I realized she had a problem. She was even more pickey than usual eating very little for 2-3 days. She also was holding her tail out straight much more than normal for several days. She had been a mill mother and was ver stoic seldom complaining and also very shy for a long time I seldon saw her tail as she keept it firmly tucked between her legs. The night she went down totally (and I now know I should have called my vet that night to report the change instead of waiting for our followup visit the next morning) she was in such pain that she could not lay down and any time her head dipped the slightest she would jerk it back up with a pained look in her eyes. I spen that night on the floow with her in her kennel and my hand insde supporting her chin so she could rest. I was sing an eye dropper to give her water since it hurt her too much to drink. Never again will I let a dog go on like that without making calls and if I don't get an answer I like I'll pay the high fee for an emergency visit to the VTH just a few miles from my home.

Good luck and rays,

Tom and the boys (Frank, Tanner and Dester)

[Meemoo]

I'd certainly make sure the pupper is on STRICT crate rest. Only time out is for potty breaks and then back in to the crate. Accupuncture and vitamin C injections are also a great help. Do you add vitamin C, and glucosamine/chondrotin to his diet? This also helps. Please check out "Dodger's list" website. They have a wonderful yahoo support group as well which as many members who have had problems and can offer great advice.

Good luck and keep us posted.

Mega rayz from the big apple!

[gunther's mom]

Gunther has been comfortable for the entire day so far. However,
I did call the vet back who is extending the current dose of Prednisone and adding Robaxen, a muscle relaxant. Now, I tell you, I brought up the issue of crating. The vet says NO... we advise doing this at a given point... feels it would be counterproductive at this time. (However, I do not see the harm.)

We live in the middle of the boondocks. The minus here is that there is no major medical center around . However, since this is FARM country there are many many vets. Our vet has an unusually good reputation. Nontheless, I called Cornell Veterinary
Hospital. They said they usually go the orthopedic route .
They strongly prefer taking referrals from other vets ,but will do
individual referrals sometimes.As I have tried to look for referrals close to where I live-my own vets name is the one. I have another dog,Jake who was also in sudden severe CHF two weeks ago and they were beyond superb. Jake's fifteen and acts lie a one year old.
Thank you for all your replies. Mark, I read so much last night about Wimpy. To be sure, his spirit lives on.

[Mark]

Hi GM,

Thank you for your kind comments about Wimpy . . . we miss him dearly, every day.

I know you like/respect your Vet . . . but, for him to say NO on strict crate rest for a dachsie exibiting these symptoms makes me wonder if he has any idea about IDD, at all. It is a must! There are many people here with first hand experience who will tell you the same.

And I would recommend you find a way to get a Mylogram done, since he seems unwilling to suggest or recommend it. It needs to be done and read by a Neurologist . . . ASAP! We do not want Gunther to *go down*, suffer paralysis or worse. If the Mylogram is favorable . . . at least your sure. Odds are it will not be favorable, but anything is possible.

We have seen dachsies with these symptoms go from bad to worse in the blink of an eye and would be very sad if it happened to Gunther.

Here are some excerps from this site http://dachshund-dca.org/diskbook.html

"When a dog starts to show mild signs of pain indicative of intervertebral disk disease but is still ambulatory, restricted activity in a cage is indicated. Allowing nature time to heal the tear in the annulus fibrosus may be all that is necessary. If cortiosteroids are simultaneously administered, restricted activity is an absolute must."

and . . .

"Intervertebral disk disease is a major clinical problem in the dachshund breed. However, by recognizing the causes and consequences of the problem, owners may prevent a great deal of difficulties by restricting the amount of excessive jumping and managing the weight of their dogs. In the event disk herniation does occur, veterinary attention should be sought immediately since the earlier medical and surgical intervention are begun, the better the therapeutic outcome."

and lastly regarding the mylogram . . .

"Intervertebral disk herniation is usually suspected based on the signalmen(breed, age, sex), history of appropriate clinical dysfunction, and a neurologic localization of the cervical or thoracolumbar areas. To make a positive diagnosis, spinal radiographs or Xrays will need to be taken. It is absolutely imperative that no movement occur and that the muscles along the spinal column be relaxed if an accurate assessment of vertebral relationships and disk spaces is to be made. Consequently, the only way to get good quality spinal radiographs is by administering a general anesthetic to the affected dog. The only exception would be if some other physical abnormality, such as severe heart disease, precludes this being done safely. In that event, surgical intervention is probably also not an option and specifically locating the offending disk is not necessary to carry out good medical therapy.

Once the dog is anesthetized, a series of plain radiographs will be taken with the dog lying on its side (lateral view). The veterinarian will be looking for changes in the normal relationships and density of the vertebrae and the disks. Those changes include narrowed or wedged disk spaces, displaced calcified disk material in the intervertebral disk space or intervertebral foramina, narrowed articular joint spaces, and/or many other suggestive signs. However, calcification of the nucleus pulposus does not necessarily mean that a disk will herniate. Unfortunately, most herniated disk material is not calcified enough to be seen on Xray. Therefore the exact position of the herniated material most often can not be determined on plain Xrays and a specialized study called a myelogram must be performed. Risks are involved and the possibility of worsening a delicately balanced situation exists. However, the manufacture of new less irritative dyes has removed a great deal of the risk and myelograms are now routinely performed without the great concern of the past.

In a myelogram, radioopaque dye is injected into the cerebrospinal fluid in the subarachnoid space. In a normal study, two lines of dye will be seen running on each side of the spinal cord more or less like railroad tracks running parallel to one another. When a disk has herniated, nuclear material and torn annular fibers can occupy the extradural space compressing the spinal cord. The normal parallel configuration of the two dye lines will be disrupted by either pushing them closer together or farther apart depending on the particular radiographic view examined. Additional oblique views can be taken to help identify which side of the spinal cord is more affected. By examining all views carefully, the amount of herniated material, and therefore the amount of pressure on the spinal cord, can be estimated. Also the preferred side to enter surgically can be determined."

Please keep us updated and good luck.

More RAYZ from Michigan . . .

:rayz: :rayz: :rayz: :rayz: :rayz: :rayz: :rayz:

[Mark]

It's been a while since we've heard . . . How is Gunther? Well we hope. :)

More RAYZ, just in case. :rayz: :rayz: :rayz: :rayz: :rayz: :rayz:

[LisaH]

My mother's 11-year-old dachsie Molly was screaming in pain in September. My mother took Molly to the vet on at least 3 occasions--and I think this is generally a good vet--but he didn't diagnose it as a back problem. Finally it got so bad that my mother took her to the "emergency vet" half an hour away, and he immediately diagnosed it as a back/neck problem and prescribed Prednisone. Molly also got a lot of bed rest because my mother was ill at the time as well. The prednisone did not solve the problem immediately, but after about a month Molly was completely better.

Molly was VERY overweight, and since I've been staying with my mother for 6 weeks anyway, I put Molly on a strict diet. Thanks to the excellent posts about how much dogs like green beans, I cut way down on the kibbles and filled in with green beans. She LOVES them (and this is a dog accustomed to muffins, devil dogs, filet mignon...). She's definitely slimmer, though she has a way to go. This is all by way of saying it CAN get better. Prednisone has its drawbacks long term, but it can be an absolute miracle drug for reducing inflammation.

Good luck!
LisaH, Annie, and Molly

[gunther's mom]

Thanks Mark-
Gunther is doing unusually well and we are cautiously optimistic.
Keep sending those rays...

[Mark]

That is great to hear. :) More RAYZ . . . :rayz: :rayz: :rayz: :rayz: :rayz: :rayz:

[Dan]

Glad to hear Gunther is doing good. Here's more rays from me and trixie....

:rayz: :rayz: :rayz: :rayz: :rayz: :rayz: :rayz: :rayz: :rayz: :rayz:

[gunther's mom]

Gunther seems to be doing extremely well. He's been off steroids for about a week. He shows no major indication of pain. I gotta wonder why the progress has been so swift....The rays surely help. He says thank you. We've put him on an even more rigourous diet- His thyroid function is okay... He says "Mom,I'm just a low metabolism dog."

[Mark]

That is terrific news!! :)

Thanks for the update and here's more RAYZ to make sure. :rayz: :rayz: :rayz: :rayz: :rayz:

[Meemoo]

Are you adding vitamin C, glucosamin/chondrotin and/or Salmon oil to his diet? These are supposed to help and certainly can't hurt.

Keep on truckin' Gunther :)

[gunther's mom]

Hi Meemoo-
Gunther would say okay ... let's do the vitamins...typically he won't take pills without a bit of soft food. Yes, I bet it would be worth a try. thanks.