What do I do???

[Heather4378]

Okay, Hi everyone it's Heather again. Just a question.....when Sebastian growls (and sometimes attacks me or my face) at me what should I do? Should I just back off, or smack him, or yell at him or what? I don't know what to do. I don't think I shouldjus back off because that tells him that he's in control and that is so not cool. So please give me loads of advice as far as what to do. Hope to hear from lots of you soon. Thank you so much for all the info it's great.
~Heather, Jay-T, and Sebastian

[Mark]

For this kind of aggression a loud NO combined with a *chin bop* is the appropriate action.

The chin bop is done like this . . .

Make a fist with your hand. Using the fleshy circle formed with your forefinger, rap upward sharply to the lower jaw . . . not hard enough to hurt Seb, but just hard enough to make his teeth "clack" together. Try to reserve the word NO for aggressiveness only. Find other words for other behavioral commands . . . like "quiet" for barking, etc.

Also, it is important that your words and actions are consistant. Always use the same word for the same desired result.

I hope this helps and please do keep us posted.

[willsana]

You might try putting him in a submissive position. Do this ONLY if you feel it is safe. Don't if you think he may hurt you.

By a submissive position I mean on his back and BELOW your head. Flip him on his back and hold him there until he gives the sign that YOU are his boss. You will see dominant dogs do this to their underlings. (And mothers to their pups). Also use a growl in your voice when you are telling him "No" or "Settle Down" or whatever your command is. (I have actually barked at a dog! Should have seen the look on that face! He never growled at me again.) Make your voice as deep, mean and commanding as possible. As a dominant dog would.

I repeat, ONLY DO THIS IF YOU WILL BE SAFE. A muzzle may be needed at first.

I hope you find the key to helping your Sebastian be the best dog he can be.

:o)-willsana

[Mel n Gooey]

From what I understand about wolves (not much, only what I've read and a little I've heard from people more experienced with them), the "alpha" does not usually "roll" subordinate dogs onto their backs unless they're going to harm them. The subordinate dog assumes a submissive position without being "forced" into it. Also, the true "alpha" is calm, confident, maybe even reserved, because it knows that it is in charge, and can handle that job. He/she doesn't have to prove anything to anyone.

Something you might want to start with your dog is the Nothing In Life Is Free program... NILIF (http://www.k9deb.com/nilif.htm) It will help you to take charge of him again, without losing trust or getting bit in the process.

Where is he when he growl at you? On the furniture? Bed? Floor? Also, is there any particular pattern to his behavior? Did he have a toy or food? Had he been exercised recently? Was he asleep? Does he growl only when you touch him, or is it anytime you get near him? If you can isolate the trigger for his behavior, then you can eliminate it until you have more control over his behavior (ie if he's aggressive when he's on the couch, you don't let him up there until he's under control, or if he's aggressive over treats, he doesn't get them until he's under control). It would also be a good idea to have him checked by a vet, as sometimes aggression is linked to health issues. He may be in pain, or could possibly have an inbalance of some sort. A check and possibly a blood test should clear up any chances that it's a medical issue. Also, a behaviorist will be able to give you much better advice on your individual situation than people who are just going off of what you've told us, without ever seeing how the dog behaves.

[dutchman]

Hello Willsana,

I suggest you look back a few weeks to a message I posted to the training forum titled "The Alpha Roll".

Heater I'll second Mark's suggestion to use the chin bop.

Tom

[willsana]

there are differing opinions on all aspects of behavior modifications and training. Not every approach works with every dog.

There are articles pro and con for all theories. A dog training school I had my dog enrolled at told me of negative cases of using the "chin bop". Injured dogs mainly by a misjudged amount of force used or the timing. Resulting in tongue and jaw injuries. In some dogs it can lead to hand shyness. With other dogs it works like a charm. I would not say "Don't give it a try." Just "Be careful." When being faced with a hostile dog it is easy to over react and use too much force. As an owner, care must be taken to assess your dog's reaction and determine if whatever you are trying is "working" or not. A hand shy dog that fears an upper cut to the jaw is not a desirable outcome either.

Each dog is an individual. A technique that works for one, may not work for another. The key is to find the tecnique that works for a given dog in a given situation.

I personally would not try the "chin bop". Striking a dog, even if it is called a "bop" is still striking. I do not critize those that use the bop. If it works for them in their situation, GREAT! I would just not be comfortable doing it. I have only used the alpha roll on one dog. He was an adult boxer that belonged to my boyfriend. He was a taken in stray and nothing was known about his background. He often growled at people, everyone. I rolled him once. He didn't like it. I "barked" ONCE in his face. He gave the signal that I was the boss. (wagged his tail). He did not growl at me or anyone else after that. It was never needed again. I tried the technique on the advice of my vet and the training school. This dog was also hand shy. The trainers thought he may have been beaten. He had scars on his head. So "No chin bop!" was the advice. This was 8 years ago. (I lived in California at the time.) I'm sure there are hundreds of new therories and opinions now. The alpa roll worked wonders on a "problem" dog I dealt with. One 30 second roll. No more growling. Good friendly loving dog that trusted me for the rest of the time I knew him. (Loved the dog. Bye bye to the boyfriend.)

willsana

[Heather4378]

Okay I'm going to try to answer everyone. I've tried the chin bop once, it seemed to work. Sebastian growls at me whenever he seems to be "grumpy". I don't like it when people wake me up so I sure as heck don't wake him up, plus this dog loves to sleep more than anyone I've ever known. It's not really an issue of where he is in the apartment. He's not food or treat aggresive, at all. It's mainly just when he "doesn't want to be bothered" kinda like "don't bother me attitude". I think I will try the chin bop if he continues to growl at me. I tried the "alpha roll" once, but at the time I didn't know it was called that. He ended up trying to attack me (the worst he ever has!), and he ended up peeing on himself and making me mader than I ever have been (I've never been that angry at an animal in my life). I'm sick of my own dog hating me! If I growl at him he growls louder. If my fiance (Jay-T) growls at him Sebastian just licks him, like it's a game. Whenever I tell him no or anything to correct him like knock it off, no, quiet, etc. I always use a deep loud voice. Maybe I didn't do the "alpha roll" correctly? I'll give it a shot if the situation seems to call for it. Just so you know I am not scared of my little 12 pound dog. I'm way bigger than him, and I know I'm the boss. I just need to make him understand that I'm the boss and that this is my house. So I will keep you posted. Sebastian is a great dog 95% of the time, the 5% of the time is what is beginning to really bother me and concern me. So like I said I'll keep you posted.
~Heather, Jay-T, and Sebastian

[willsana]

If you tried the "alpha roll" once and it did not go well, I would not try again. More bad experiences are not what either of you need. If the chin bop is working with him it will most likely be the best thing for him.

As I said in my last post. I was dealing with one particular dog on the advice of the two trainers at the school and my vet. It worked like a charm the very first time. It was never needed again. If it had gone badly I would not have continued and would have tried something else.

I was sharing something that had worked for me with this dog.

I may have missed some of your posts on Sebatian. Mel n Gooey mentioned checking to be sure there are no medical reasons for his grumpy attitudes. Have you discussed this with your vet and determined he is not reacting to a medical problem?

I hope to here good news for Sebastian soon.

willsana

[dutchman]

Willsana, I wsn't trying to ttachk your ideas when I pointed you to the article I had posted. I just think it's very interesting wehn somone who originated an idea changes their mind and now recommends it not be used. As one of the early propents of the alpha roll the authors must have had a many chances to observe it's use and or abuse by owners.

Heather is is a list taken from page 77 of the book "HOW TO BE YOUR DOG's BEST FRIEND" The completely revised and updated edition. The book is by The Monks of New Skete and is published by Littlem Brown and Compny

---------------------BEGIN QUOTE----------------------

Discipline Do's and Don't's

1. Go get the dog. Never call dog to you then discipline him.
Even if a chase is involved go get the dog.
2. Never use an object t discipline or punish.
3. Never use the dog's name in conjunction with discipline.
4. Disipline in proportion to the offense. Verbal discipline and leah
correction cover lesser offevses, while the shakedown and cuff
under the chin are usually reserved for more serious non-training
related offenses.
5. For the shakedown and cuff under the chin, first sut the dog, Wiyh
the cuff unde the chin, put tension on the training collar by
inserting your index funger in one ring and pulling it snug. If the
dog doesn't setm press don on her rear. Don't begin discipling
until the dog is sitting and anchored. Otherwise, the dog can
more easilr scoot away from you and avoid the correction.
6. Make eye contact with the dog as you discipline.
7. Never hit from above.
8. Remember to be dramatic.
9. Pay no attention to the dog for half an hour after discplining.
---------------END OF QUOTE---------------------------------

I haven't had tome to read the whole book. The above list is similar to that the several trainers I have been to would recommend. I would suggest you see if your library has a copy or consider getting one at your local book store. here are many other good training books out there but a book can never compair to a good trainer. Just like when people see a therapist they are more likely to follow through with behavioral modifications when paying for the theraphy than they are if they jsut read a book about the same behavior modification.

Persoally I know I don't follow number 5. By the time I would get one of the agrtssive boys into a sit position they would not know what they are bing corrected for. I alos have a hard time following number 9 since Tanner reacts so dramatically to a major correction. I know you are thinking how do I follow number 7 when my dachshund is so low to the ground. If you are using the chin bop (very similar to the cuff described in the book you need to get down to thedogs level and your forearm approach should be at or below their chin level..

Please excue any typos but it's the end of a long dy and I'm still fighing off the last of a 10 day cold.

I would really suggest yo start obedience classes to help reinforce who is the alpha in your home and to have somone local who can observe and the two of you together. The majority of good trainers use a reward based training approach and basically the corrections are use to correct negative behaviors. LEvel of correction is dependent on level of negative behavior. Agression be it barking, growling, nipping or biting are need progressively higher levels of correction. I too would be the first to say not every training approach will work for every dog. Some trainers are very focused into one approach and will not even consider suggestion other methods. It's possible you may have to work with more than one trainer to fine one who's approach you feel comfortable with and whos approach works for Sebastian. The bottom line is a consistent approach to his training and you being able to work with him on his problems. An owner who is not consistent on their training or who is nwilling to discipline when required is a major contributor to a problem animal. There are always those rare animals that will never respond to training and even teh best owners and or trainers ocassionaly find an animal they can't help work through their problems. It does't sound like Sebastian is that type of dog he just needs some helpning his proper place and behavior as a member of your pack.

I also agree ruling out a possible medical cause is alwas a good idea. Agression especailly in a resting dog may be an indicator they are dealing withpain and what ou are realy observing is pain agression.

I see I'm wanderig again time to get to bed.

Tom and the boys (Frank, Tanenr and Dexter)

[Mel n Gooey]

The problem with correcting aggressive behavior is that all the "aggressive" behaviors (barking, growling, snapping, biting)are things that lead up to an actual attack, with intent to cause harm. They are like "steps" leading to the attack, warnings for you not to proceed... you do something the dog doesn't like, the dog growls... you ignore him and keep pushing, the dog snaps at you (only getting air, and they don't "miss" by accident)... you disreguard that warning and the next bite will make contact with the skin.... if you fail to heed any of their "warnings", they'll use whatever force they see necessary to get you away, whether it's just a few quick bites, as if to correct you, or a serious attack that lands you in the hospital. So what does that have to do with correcting a dog for aggressive behavior? When you correct a dog for something, it learns that to avoid the correction, it must do/not do a certain thing. In this case, you're correcting the dog for growling/snapping... his way of warning you off. He's simply going to stop giving you that warning. Now, that doesn't mean that he won't react aggressively if he feels the need, just that there will be one less warning before he does it. Therefore you're not even "fixing" the aggressive behavior, just limiting his options in uncomfortable stuations even further, and breaking the "communication" in the process... imagine how you would feel if you told someone you didn't want to be bothered (and you really didn't feel like it), they persisted in bothering you so you yelled at them; and they jumped up and hit you in the eye? Would you yell at them again? Doubt it. Would you just meekly sit back all day long and let them continue to bug you? Doubt that too. You would likely just skip the part where you yelled at them and move on to physically moving them away from you or some other more serious move than just talking/yelling. That is a bit of a bad comparison, as most people don't get that mad over silly things like that, but there are days when even the little things can get under your skin, and remember that dogs can't "tell" you to "get lost". There is also avoidance behavior that is associated with corrections/correction based training... ie: if you correct the dog everytime he growls at you while laying on the floor, he will eventually begin to associate you walking up to him while he there as a sign that he's about to be corrected, and will either run, or if he misses the chance to avoid it, will be even more stressed over the situation and likely to bite. BTW, I'm not a "purely positive trainer", and do believe that corrections have their place in many situations (I do use some corrections in training and to "proof" our dogs), but feel that aggression is not one of them.
Now, all that said :D if it was my dog doing this, I'd start tossing little bits of food (green beans, carrots, hot dog, dog treats, anything he likes) onto him while he's sleeping, and when he's just woke up. As he begins to pay attention to you when you toss them at him, you can move closer until eventually you're handing them to him. Then you can start petting him with one hand as you hand him a treat with the other. After he's gotten to where he looks forward to you coming up to him (because he knows good things are involved) you can start to wean him off the treats, first giving him treats two out of 3 times, then every other time, then once every three times, then only periodically, like a slot machine :D . You also might want to start feeding him if you don't already (I mean you as in you hand him the food, not trying to say you don't feed him :D ). You want to control all the resources, and if he wants them, he gets them your way. Do you free feed or do you have scheduled feeding times and food up anytime else?

[Frzframe]

I don't have this problem with my Mitzi but it sounds like a great plan of action. I'll remember it for the future. Thanks.

~Shonda