color question for showing

[graci67]

hi! I a few questions. Many of you know I am getting a new baby, but, I have never mentioned that I am interested in getting him in the show ring. I am completly new at this, but I know in my heart that its what I want to do, and Im looking forward to Milo's future as a show dachshund. I have a question, though. his mother is a beautiful red color, and his dad a milky chocolate and tan. Milo has inherited his dad's chocolate and tan coloring. however, as he has gotten older( hes 4 weeks old), his color is more of a reddish chocolate than a milk chocolate like his dad- almost a red than a chocolate. I was wondering if he grows up to have an unusually reddish chocolate and tan coat if that would disqualify him from the show ring? who do i contact to ask those types of questions? the AKC? he has tan points ( you can clearly see them in his pictures) but he has a very red coat. :question:
heres a picture of him.
http://pic70.picturetrail.com/VOL1795/11452711/20295407/332090159.jpg

[juliette]

From what I understand, he's colouring could change very dramatically from the puppy coat he has now. Even my Moe, who is your garden variety red dachsie has gone through several different coat colours until it settled into the deep red with slight black shading that he now has.

As for the real gist of your question, unfortunately that I can't answer but I'm sure some of our more experienced show folks could help out.

[kpm_tex]

Choc & Tan is a valid coloring. As Juliette said puppies go through many changes as they grow, one of them is the color and shades of color in their coat. What shade of chocolate is immaterial as long as there are tan points visible. That being said... color is not a disqualifying fault... you could for all intents and purposes bring any color dachshund into a ring...However, when put up against other dachshunds with coats that more closely meet the standard you could be tossing your entry fee away.

Does Milo's breeder show? She should be your first source of 'mentoring' when it comes to the show ring. She should also be able to tell you *if* he is even show quality, and at this point that would only be a guess.

If Milo's breeder is for what ever reason unable to mentor you I would suggest going to some shows and talking to the dachshund people there & get involved with your local dachshund club. Also, find out if there are any classes for 'conformation' in your area you can take with Milo so you can learn *how* to show.

I'd also recommend a book called. 'Positive Training For Show Dogs" by Vicki Ronchette (a dachshund person).

Conformation showing is not that difficult.. but it can be confusing with all the classes ... just knowing which class to enter is confusing sometimes. It can also be stressful for the dog and the more you know the less stress there will be on you and also on Milo.

[BeauBuddy]

I have a question, though. his mother is a beautiful red color, and his dad a milky chocolate and tan. Milo has inherited his dad's chocolate and tan coloring. however, as he has gotten older( hes 4 weeks old), his color is more of a reddish chocolate than a milk chocolate like his dad- almost a red than a chocolate. I was wondering if he grows up to have an unusually reddish chocolate and tan coat if that would disqualify him from the show ring? who do i contact to ask those types of questions? the AKC? he has tan points ( you can clearly see them in his pictures) but he has a very red coat.


I think he's going to be a chocolate based red. That means he is not a chocolate and tan. Reds can be black based, with a black nose, or choc based with a brown nose. The choc based reds will look like a choc/tan when young, but, as you noticed, the red starts to appear. Choc based reds have won points in the ring, but they have to be exceptional. There are judges who prefer to see a red dog with a black nose.

On a different angle, my 2 have been shown, and retired here. The experience of showing has made them better pets, IMO. They stand nice on the table at the vets. They are better socialized because of attending shows than I could have done. I love how they focus their attention on me, because of this show training. I think the classes you take for showing will give you a nicer pet. If I got a puppy, I would definately take them to those classes whether they were show quality or not.

You cannot bring them to the show until they are 6 months old, I believe. Spayed pets cannot be shown. The conformation ring is for intact dogs to be compared to each other to see if they meet the standard, with the idea that they will be having puppies.

I really do think that the other events of agility and earth dog are more fun for the dog!!

Those are my thoughts. Sorry about the length.

[catstamm]

Lots of good info given.
He looks like a chocolate based RED to me also....
As mentioned, does his breeder show her dogs? Are there Champions in Milos pedigree?

[maddoxies]

I showed my golden until she was 6 months (and then spayed). I did it strictly for the socialization and she was AMAZING with all people all of her life. Exceptional, even for a golden.

If I ever got a puppy again, I would show it as well for the socialization of people, crowds, other dogs, etc. for the first 6 months until sterilization time.

[Cocoa and Me]

From what I remember reading, choco/tan is a recessive trait and red is dominant. So it wouldn't surprise me if he turned out to either be a red w/ liver nose (I believe like Kipper??) or maybe a chocolate based red. I don't actually see tan points in that picture. :scratch:

Mousse (my boy) is a red w/ black overlay and his mom was a chocolate/tan and his dad is an english cream. All the puppies came out red (Mousse was just the darkest).

Ask the breeder for a pedigree on the mom and dad and see what they carry for too.

Also, if any of my info on the genetics is wrong, please someone correct me!! lol :oops:

[Cocoa and Me]

If I ever got a puppy again, I would show it as well for the socialization of people, crowds, other dogs, etc. for the first 6 months until sterilization time.

That is *exactly* what I'm going to do next time. (Yes...I said next time!!! lol)

I went back and forth on the thought of showing Mousse, but at the time it just wasn't the right time of life for me. :( I know he would have been awesome, as long as he didn't howl the whole time and wag his tail like it was a propeller. haha :innocent:

Next time...next time...

[Tucker's Mom]

You've definitely been given some good pointers from some very experienced dachsie people here on DBB. As soon as Milo has completed his round of puppy shots, I would start him in classes of some sort either conformation or obedience or both. Getting involved with your local dachsie club, as Karen has mentioned, will also be very beneficial.

Watch for conformation puppy "matches" in your area. It's a good way to break into the show ring without near the expense or stress of a big AKC show. You won't receive points at a match; but, it will give you some experience showing in a ring and an idea of how Milo will like being in the ring. :goodluck:

[Suzanne R]

Yep - lots of good suggestions given. I wish I could afford to get in more obedience training with Jack and/or Lexie - the socialization alone is worth the money, but right now, it's just not an option for me. So I have two pretty unsocialized little furkids :(.

[BeauBuddy]

As soon as Milo has completed his round of puppy shots, I would start him in classes of some sort either conformation or obedience or both. Getting involved with your local dachsie club, as Karen has mentioned, will also be very beneficial.

Watch for conformation puppy "matches" in your area. It's a good way to break into the show ring without near the expense or stress of a big AKC show. You won't receive points at a match; but, it will give you some experience showing in a ring and an idea of how Milo will like being in the ring. :goodluck:


Good point Tucker's Mom! The conformation puppy matches are called sanction matches here (if I remember that correctly :innocent:) Those are so fun to go to, even without a dog, if they are still too young. That's where they practice showing. Puppies of all kinds attend. Breeders usually want that socialization, so patting puppies is welcome. We brought Engli one Sunday afternoon, just to watch, and found out that she is quite adept at pickpocketing. It seems everyone walking by had bait in their pocket, and Engli could certainly stick her nose in when they walked by.:innocent: Folks always stopped and rewarded her rude behaviour by giving her some bait. You don't know what things they can learn there!

[BeauBuddy]

From what I remember reading, choco/tan is a recessive trait and red is dominant. So it wouldn't surprise me if he turned out to either be a red w/ liver nose (I believe like Kipper??) or maybe a chocolate based red. I don't actually see tan points in that picture. :scratch:




A red with a liver nose is a choc based red. Same thing, different terms. I say choc nose, but it's probably more common to say liver nose.

[graci67]

for all those of you that have asked, Wendy doesnt show her dogs. But Milo's father's parents have been shown and have won some good points. I Have asked her why she doesnt show her dogs, as they are beautiful and I think they would do awesome in the show ring. ( Milo's mom, Maggie is gorgeous, and an almost PERFECT example of the breed ) and she told me she just doesn't have the time to show her dogs. thank you all for your insight. I think he may be some sort red when he grows up.

cocoa and me: he actually does have tan points. theyre kinda hard to see, but look under his eye. there is a slightly lighter red coloring that is a tan point. you can also see them really good in a picture she sent me when he was 2 weeks old. heres the pic.
http://pic70.picturetrail.com/VOL1795/11452711/20295407/329675909.jpg
under his eye and close to his ear are his tan points on his face.

I guess time will only tell! :sillylove: I love him no matter what his color is!

[ReiMurphSton]

I'm getting a choc/tan girl on Saturday to show. Her breeder also had a black/tan girl from the same litter. He said that the black/tan would be easier to finish because of her color, but the choc/tan girl was nicer. I decided I'd rather have the dog with better structure since showing will be a hobby for me and I'm not overly concerned with how long it takes to finish her.

[Cindi]

[COLOR="Navy"]I think he's going to be a chocolate based red. That means he is not a chocolate and tan. Reds can be black based, with a black nose, or choc based with a brown nose. The choc based reds will look like a choc/tan when young, but, as you noticed, the red starts to appear. Choc based reds have won points in the ring, but they have to be exceptional. There are judges who prefer to see a red dog with a black nose.
COLOR]

what book I can find the references to *chocolate based* and *black based*? I have researched genetics for several years and no book I've read references color genetics this way.

Thanks.

Cindi

[Weeweeniekennel]

What you need to do is in your area find an All breed club and join that then hook up with the people that show and they will help you along even a dachshund club in your area. You need to socialize all you can they can not be afraid of strangers handling them and their private parts and loud noises hair dryers and stuff banging and crashing dog shows are very noise. The only real big color problem is white and if you go to a specaility show the smooths are entered by color then maybe longs too I don't show longs so not sure about them.

[Cindi]

What you need to do is in your area find an All breed club and join that then hook up with the people that show and they will help you along even a dachshund club in your area. You need to socialize all you can they can not be afraid of strangers handling them and their private parts and loud noises hair dryers and stuff banging and crashing dog shows are very noise. The only real big color problem is white and if you go to a specaility show the smooths are entered by color then maybe longs too I don't show longs so not sure about them.

Conformation classes, sometimes put on by all-breed clubs or obedience clubs, would be great socialization times also. Even a basic obedience class would be great for her and great bonding for both of you!

As to coloration separation at shows, Bonnie is correct. Specialties can separate by color but all-breeds just separate by their normal classes and then, in our breed, Open Miniature and Open Standard but you will have months and months before you need to enter the Open classes. Smooths and longs are separated by color, not wires. i guess they thought it would be too difficult to discern wire coloration :) OR...there just weren't that many black and tans!

Cindi
www.lacidachshund.com

[Weeweeniekennel]

Our all breed club in this area has show handling class it cost 5.00 for members and 7 for non member as Im one of the instructors. Another thing is go to some of the shows and talk to people who are showing and check it out before you spend a lot of money and then decide you don't like it Showing can be very stressful and expensive In this part of the country it cost 28.00 per dog for the first class then a small breck if you enter another class If you don't go you don't getr your money back beside getting to the shows, motel,food, parking, a weekend can cost up to 500 plus to go to a dog show. Thats why you need to hook up with people to share rooms and basic expenses

[GoldiDox Mom]

"Chocolate based red" is not a term you'll find in books on genetics... it's just a term some Dachshund people use to describe pups that result from red to choc/tan breedings, like this cute little Milo pup.

Choc/tan to red breeding is not encouraged for exactly this reason... Pups end up an "off" color, appearing somewhere between red and chocolate, and usually have liver noses. Their coloring is very difficult to determine at birth and does change quite a bit as they grow. There's truly no such thing as a "chocolate red" Dachshund, and dogs that end up with this type of coloring do not have points... red dogs never have points. Milo is simply red and should be registered red.

I've found that reputable show breeders wouldn't breed red to choc/tan, as the resulting pups with liver noses are not desirable, and it's rare to see a dog from such a breeding with this coloring do well in the ring.

That's not to say that Milo won't do well... definitely a good idea to do obedience classes, handling classes, etc, and enter him in puppy matches if possible. The puppy matches are tons of fun and also very educational at the same time. I learned a great deal from matches.

I don't believe a breeder has to show his/her dogs to be a "reputable" breeder... I know several wonderful breeders who don't show their dogs, but have produced many pups that end up doing very well in the ring. And, I don't believe that having a lot of champions in a pedigree makes a pup "champion" material. I know of some dogs with champion titles that are "not" such great representations of the breed, that's for sure.

Good luck with Milo. He is a cutie.

Karen Ann




what book I can find the references to *chocolate based* and *black based*? I have researched genetics for several years and no book I've read references color genetics this way.

Thanks.

Cindi

[ReiMurphSton]

The "points" you're referencing might just be shading also. Black shaded pups often look "pointed" when they're little and the shading is heavy (see Reilly's puppy picture below), but the shading lessens as they get older. A liver nosed red will have chocolate shading instead of black, so they tend to look chocolate and tan as little puppies but it becomes more clear as they age also that they're red dogs. I removed the link I referenced earlier-apparently it's a controversy here, so I'll leave it alone.

http://i181.photobucket.com/albums/x275/RiMurphSton/DSC_3388040.jpg

This is the color Reilly is as an adult.
http://i181.photobucket.com/albums/x275/RiMurphSton/Reillyinyard.jpg

And this is a true chocolate/tan pup-at 17 weeks old-I'm taking her into the ring in the spring.
http://i181.photobucket.com/albums/x275/RiMurphSton/P8300006.jpg

[Cindi]

That site you reference, which I believe has been erased numerous times from messages, has MANY MANY erroneous *facts* put out there. The person that wrote that has many IMO mind you, odd opinions about dachshunds and unfortunately is putting many things out there as facts that are not :(

Cindi

[Ruby]

tan points in that second picture for sure. Is mama a long hair? I think she is very red already. I am not informed on gens!

She is a beautiful pup!!!

Wendy

[Dachshundrsq]

I will post a few of my thoughts which may not be very popular, but it is still my opinion.
Because this litter has a Choc/Tan sire, each puppy will carry for Chocolate.
ie: Bb, a chocolate and tan dog would be atatbb ("at" = Blk/Tan, "bb"= Chocolate) The "bb" gene in double doses will cause ALL black on a dog to be brown (or chocolate colored) The mother of this puppy is obviously a Bb, she could be an ayayBb or an ayatBb ("ay"=Red) Every dog has two genes for each trait, they can either have two genes that are the same (Homozygous for a trait, in which case they could only pass on the one trait) or have two gene which are different (Heterozygous) The upper case "B" signifies they do not have the chocolate gene, the lower case "b" signifies they do, when in double doses ie "bb" they WILL show for the color because the "b" is a recessive trait. It can be hidden behind a "B" but will be expressed if not hidden. The way the gene is expressed is that all black on the dog will turn brown. If the dog was only going to have a black overlay, then the overlay will be brown. All other normal black on the dog (ie: eye rims, pads, nails, nose) would be brown. The "bb" gene does not affect a red coat. It will not change any portion that was going to be red (ie: why a blk/tan turns into a choc/tan but the tan (which is really red) is not changed at all.
Any breeder worth their weight in gold, will KNOW this information, as a breeder it is our responsibility to know. It is also our responsibility to not pawn off something as a respresentation of something else just because the unsuspecting buyer doesn't know any better. If this breeder doesn't KNOW this is a liver nosed red puppy, then she shouldn't be breeding. JMO
Why someone will go to a non fancier to get a show dog is beyond my comprehension. There are so many good fanciers out there with good show puppies to sell, and will likely shoot up a straight forward description of the puppy, would never sell a picture of a 2 week old pup as a show pup and for that matter an 8 week old pup and maybe not even a 12 week old pup, though by 12 weeks they will likely have a pretty good indication, if #1 they have been breeding show puppies for several generations, #2 the puppies are out of their own lines. I think it safe to say that 90% of all pet owners believe that 90% of all dachshunds are beautiful and gorgous and a good representation of the breed. Even pictures can be quite deceiving. There are many, many things to look at when looking for a show dog. Movement (front, side and rear), Length of Upper Arm & Shoulder, rear angulation, layback, eye shape, overall balance, ribbing, keel, feet, wrap around front, etc. Most of which cannot be evaluated without laying your hands on the dog, then having the knowledge to know what you are feeling.
You can buy a liver nosed red puppy and show it, however, it will NEED to be an exceptional puppy to even compete against the "Normal" colored dogs in the ring. There are several finished CH liver nosed red dogs, I have seen a couple that were gorgous, very nice dogs. Starting out with a dog like this may not be a very good start into the fancy. Some people in the fancy are not nice people at all, they can be mean and nasty and some just look for novice people they can either bad mouth or chew up and spit out. There are others who are extremely nice and very helpful, obviously you will need to find the later and ignore the rest. You need contructive criticism not pure meaness. What you need to do is find someone who is willing to not only teach the bad points about a dog, but also the good points, not be afraid to be honest, but not be mean about it either. A good mentor will steer you in the right direction but allow you to make your own decisions, teach you what you they know, but know that they do not know it all and be open minded and open to suggestions. There are no perfect dogs out there and while some come pretty close, you have to decide for yourself which faults you can live with (which is always subject to change esp if that fault keeps biting you in the butt) and which faults you just have to do away with. Color faults are the least of my worries, however, some would not even consider a pup, first and foremost based on color, it would immediately be out of the question, even if it was the best pup in the litter. Obviously, that is something they just cannot live with. I know puppies are CUTE, but IMO you need to keep your lines open. If you do not mind having a pet to start your show journey with, then by all means just pick one and get started, just keep in mind that it might end up being something that you yourself cannot believe you bought, it will still be quite loved, none the less.
Good Luck and make sure you keep it FUN!!

[alpha_psa]

Sorry It was very difficult for me to read all articles (me English is not so good), and sorry if I write again the simple things.
We here in Russia don't have many examples og choco?tan longhaired standarts. But. As I wait for a choco boy - I learned about it.
If a red dog has choco!!! (you can call it brown) nose - it means that its parents both have choco genе. And it means that such dog doesn't have black colour! at all.
we will never mix up a real choco and tan pup. But some pups are milky choco.. Look, imagine a shaded red dog. You see red and black hair. And now change black for choco (brown). You see steel a red dog! But its nose :-)
I will show you
two real tan pups: black and tan //// choco and tan
http://www.chiens-de-france.com/photo/eleveurs/53/10453/album/4f4ee83a-4db8-88e4-f156-6c6df60af0ed.jpg
Now: red
http://spdachshund.narod.ru/Klepa31.10.2006.JPG
shaded red
http://spdachshund.narod.ru/SirSLeoboldRosso.jpg
shaded with choco red
http://s57.radikal.ru/i158/0810/4f/64129546bcde.jpg

and
http://s59.radikal.ru/i165/0810/a5/ef8a804edf8f.jpg
Left pup is simple shadedred (it can be later red) and right pup is shaded with choco red (and we steel don't know what real color it will have when it grow up)

[schroeders mom]

Thank you Becky for that detailed explanation, it was very informative.
Here is Schroeder, he is a liver nosed red, he also has red nails, very light eyes and now, grey hair (like me) :funny:
I have no idea what his parents looked like, but he's very special to us. :loveshower:

Rats - let me try again....
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v648/doxiemom4/HPIM1235.jpg