vaccination question

[Tanya]

Do all of you have your dogs vaccinated yearly? I always do because that's what I've always heard was best. My friend just got a little puppy from a lady in Atlanta who rescued them and both parents from a puppy mill...she says. She told Holly (my friend) that it wasn't necessary to have vaccinations every year. She forwarded this website, www.naturalrearing.com, (http://www.naturalrearing.com,) to Holly to read. It talks about shots, food, all kinds of stuff. I've never heard some of this. She makes it seem like vets are just out for cash and that's it. I don't know. It just sounds odd to me so I thought I seek the wisdom of you great people.

[isobelsmom]

Tanya,

I think it's dangerous not to get vacs for your dogs. it's true that they can build a limited immunity to some diseases, but the key word is limited. Distemper and rabies are the two I would worry about. Parvo and Corona on a somewhat lower basis. Leptospiro- sis is actually kinda rare now, but none of these I would take a chance with.

It is mandatory for all dogs (and cats) to have rabies vacs and paper proof to show that you have done so. We're talking big trouble if your dog was to bite someone and you did not have your pup vaccinated.

I tried to access that web site and it was off-line. I'll take a look at it and let you know what I think. May not count for much, but vets are more than money-grubbing people. Would this woman not have her children vaccinated? Some people think that pups can carry on the mothers' immunity (which she acquired through shots)and they can, but for a very short time.

This whole thing sounds off to me. I wonder if it tells you to skip the vet and buy from them?

mary

[Cindi]

There are many people that feel we over vaccinate our dogs now. However, since I nor any of my friends (and they have lots of dogs) have ever had any problems with vaccinations causing problems I do not feel I am ready to give up on the protection they offer. I give 4-5 puppy shots and then yearly (parvo every 6 months if I'm going to lots of dog shows or agility trials) and do not get the rabies until the puppy is as close to 6 months as possible.
Being in a rabies quarantine state I must get yearly rabies shots but would much prefer if we only had to do that one every 3 years.
A yearly exam by the vet is still a good idea, I feel, so that the vet has written records of changes he/she finds ie heart murmurs, skin tone/weight, spots, moles, lumps, etc. This way he/she has something to go by if your dog does get sick and you state something like 'well before he did this and now this showed up....'
JMHO Cindi http://dachsie.org/ubb/angel.gif

[Mandy]

When we lived in Kansas, we got vaccines every year. Now, Henry only has to get the rabies every three years and the rest every year. Jakey got all of his puppy shots except for the Lepto...several dogs in his line had reactions to the lepto vaccine, so we decided not to take a chance on it. These guys are too precious not to get their shots every year. Yes, dogs used to live without all of these vaccines....but there are more things out there now, they are more domesticated now, and they have a chance to live longer now....

[wireweiners]

This has been a very controversial subject on some of the other boards I visit. We recently had on of the local vets come talk to our kennel club on the subject. He said that both Colorado State and Texas A&M have done research that shows that we don't have to vaccinate as often as previously recommended. They are recommending the usual series of puppy shots, annual vaccinations every year until 3 years of age, then every 3 years until 8 years of age and then after that it would depend on the individual situation. For example if you went to a lot of shows you might want to continue to vaccinate, if your dog was a stay at home, you might not. This is for shots other than rabies which is required by law. Rabies you give as the laws in your area require. Most vets are now recommending that you don't give the lepto shots as the kind of lepto it protects against is seldom seen anymore and the lepto shot causes more reactions than the other shots. My vet says the shot can cause more problems than the disease. It is still important that your dog have an annual check up. I have been vaccinating annually because I do go to shows. I have never had any problems caused by vaccines. But this does give us something to think about. I think Colorado State may have something about this on their vet school's web site.

[WOTANSMUTTI]

What's that saying- A stitch in time saves nine? Well, in this case it can save your dog. The saddest thing to happen to any animal is something totally preventable.

I get my dogs vaccinated for rabies once every 3 years, and the other stuff once yearly. I give the big girls the shots myself since they're not sensitive , and Sadie won't let the vet touch her anyway!

Wotan, the "baby" has thinner skin and I worry that I might do him damage so I take him in. So far, the doggies haven't cost too much...

[Pam C]

A lot of the "natural" articles I've read, suggest that for older dog it is not needed to give annual vaccinations. I've never seen any real scientific studies presented in them though. While I am leery of vaccinations I also don't want my guys to catch anything.
I had a pup died from the parvo (got the desease) shot. This was a while back I don't know if it is still that way. The vet said for certain breeds it is common for them to get the desease from the shots as pups. Dobies, Rotties and dachsies were among them. All of which I have http://dachsie.org/ubb/frown.gif.

[doxielover]

An ounce of prevention goes a long way! I'd say if your dog tolerates vaccinations well, DO IT! Look at it this way too; just think of how MANY sick dogs there would be if people stopped vaccinating! http://dachsie.org/ubb/frown.gif Many (if not all) diseases are airborne, spreads like wildfire. My Vet said the same thing about Lepto. I noticed that instead of giving the standard DHLPP vacs this last time to Freddie, he gave DA2PPv. I also learned that with Corona, dogs will develop their own immunity to it, BUT puppies still require the vac.

Susan

[wireweiners]

I agree with y'all. I have heard some people say that if you feed your dog a "natural" raw diet that their immune system will be so strong you won't have to vaccinate. I think this is a bunch of Bull-ony. http://dachsie.org/ubb/rolleyes.gif

Dr. Ellis is a mainstream vet and is well thought of by several members of our kennel club. He did have supporting data from CSU and A&M. However, the thing that impressed me most about his talk is that vets should stop treating vaccinations as routine but should treat them as medical procedures. He said that what vaccinations to give and how often to give them should be based on the needs of the individual animal rather than treating them all the same. This made a lot of sense to me. Bottom line, you and your vet should decide what's best for your dog.

[Penny's Aunt]

These "you don't have to vaccinate your dogs" things seem to come in waves every so often. A lot of the natural-only people seem to see vaccinations as an invasion to the body.

Yes, it's true when my parents were kids (80 yrs ago), dogs weren't vaccinated. But a lot of the people lived in rural areas, & the dogs weren't meeting a lot of other dogs. And if they did meet an infected dog & caught the disease, they usually died.

Then there are the people that say if your dog is a house dog or doesn't go much of anywhere, you don't have to vaccinate because they aren't exposed. Even if your dog pees on papers & never leaves the house, it could still get a disease because YOU or a visitor brought it home with you. You never noticed that little piece of poop you stepped in. But your dog found it, & sniffed it carefully... and that's how he got whatever the other dog was infected with.

One thing that a lot of people don't realize is that dogs that aren't exposed to very many other dogs have virtually NO IMMUNITY. Whereas that lab-mix that constantly wanders the neighborhood is meeting dogs all the time (sick & well ones). If he is lucky, he is being exposed to minute amounts of the viruses all the time, which is keeping his immunity up. Constant exposure of the right kind & amount is sort of like a vaccination. But if his immunity drops because of lack of exposure, then he comes across a really sick dog with a "hot" case of distemper, then he is likely (but not always) to come down with it himself, & death is a real possibility.

Most dogs don't have any problem with vaccinations. I know how to properly take care of vaccine & give vaccinations, but I don't vaccinate my own animals. Sure, it would save money (we have one dog & 9 cats). But just because my dog didn't have a reaction to vaccine this time, doesn't mean he won't next time. Allergies can show up AT ANY TIME, no matter how many previous exposures. You've heard of people who have been stung by bees a dozen times, then suddenly after the last sting, they are gasping & having trouble breathing. It can be the same with ragweed, yellow jackets or vaccines.

Vaccine allergies can be severe or mild. Mild ones can get worse with each vaccination. The worst is anaphalactic shock, when the dog (or person) starts gasping & turning blue when his respiratory passages start swelling closed. This a real life-threatening emergency, & you don't have much time to get to help. But other reactions can be much less severe: rashes, hives, red ears, itchy skin.

The worst reactions show up very quickly. You aren't likely to even get to your car in the vet's parking lot before you notice something is wrong, or your dog passes out.

If your dog ever has a reaction to a vaccine, your vet will probably mark his chart that he is allergic. IF YOU DON'T SEE HIM DO IT BEFORE YOU LEAVE, INSIST THAT HE DO IT NOW! My vet would write it in red ink right on the cover of the client's folder, impossible to miss.

Once you know your dog is allergic, it is usually a simple thing for the vet to give him a shot of antihistamine (separately) at the same time he gives the vaccine. Then you can just sit in the waiting room for a few minutes to make sure everything is okay, then it's business as usual. (You take the pupper to Burger King for a hamburger, don't you?)

Some people, if they find their dog is allergic to vaccine, stop getting the dog vaccinated. BIG MISTAKE! You have to ask yourself: Which is worse, one extra little shot of antihistamine, or the dog dying of parvo or distemper?

There are even some people whose dogs are mostly housedogs, & they don't get rabies vaccinations. These people make me sweat. Rabies is in the wildlife population all over the U.S. all the time, all year round. My vet was involved in a rabies epidemic in N. Calif right after he got out of vet school. He said the very first one he saw was an enormous Germ Shep that had been bitten by a gopher or something while the owner was walking him on a leash. Rabies is a horrible way to die. Dogs & cats you can kill. People don't have that luxury -- you have to wait until the disease kills you.

Older animals that have been vaccinated regularly probably don't need further vaccinations, except rabies, esp if they are in poor health. My vet says if they are over 10 (dogs or cats), they are unlikely to need further vaccinations. But a yearly (or twice-yearly) checkup is a good idea for older animals especially.

[Tanya]

Thanks for all the info. I passed all your comments on to my friend Holly. I thought I was pretty well informed, but I had never heard of some of this stuff on the web page I mentioned. I'm going over to the food topic now cause I got more questions. Come on...I'm waiting on you all! http://dachsie.org/ubb/wink.gif

[Wienergal]

Sorry to be so late in replying to this interesting post! I too have read about this notion that we over-vaccinate. It might be true. BUT...I'm old enough to remember a time before regular vaccinations. Our Irish setter was bitten by a stray and died of distemper; it was horrible and sad.

I guess the bottom line is this: If your dog isn't unusually sensitive to vaccinations, and most aren't, why risk the results of NOT vaccinating as prescribed by your vet?

I WAS surprised to read the posts about annual rabies vaccines, though. In Illinois, we have had every-three-year schedules for a long time. I just assumed it was that way everywhere!

[Penny's Aunt]

The time between rabies vaccinations depends how far you are from the Mexican border, where rabies is fairly common in the wild dogs there. I believe all the states that are on the border have the every-year rule: Calif., Arizona, New Mexico, Texas.

One reason may be that no vaccine is 100%. There is always going to be one or two dogs out of every hundred that were vaccinated, but it didn't "take". You don't hear about it too much, because, with rabies especially, many dogs don't come in contact with rabid animals. So, by vaccinating every year, they hope that if the vaccine didn't take one year, it will the next. Protection is usually for 3 years, but a break in the protection can be disastrous.

Note: all warm-blooded mammals can carry rabies, with the possible exception of opossums, which don't seem to be susceptible (for reasons I don't understand). MOST SUSCEPTIBLE: cats, skunks, raccoons. Skunks & raccoons are supposed to be so susceptible to the disease that they have been known to get it from vaccinations.

Oddly enough, being bitten by a rabid animal is not an absolute guarantee of getting the disease. A human being has a 40% chance of developing the disease after being bitten by a known rabid animal. And it can take up to two years to show the symptoms. But once the symptoms start to show, there is no cure.

By the way, if you didn't know, the old rabies vaccinations (given after being bitten) that you would have to get in the abdomen daily for 3 weeks has been superceded by a new (several years old) French vaccine that you just get in the fanny or arm, for a shorter duration, & it's much safer. It doesn't cause encephalitis (brain fever) the way the old one did sometimes. But it is expensive: the last I heard it cost $1600 for the series.

Keep your pets vaccinated, both dogs & cats. The life you save may be your own.

[Owen's Mom]

Vaccinations are very complex in the Hoilistic vet world. Rather than just giving a dog a shot every year, you can legally have something called "Titters" done. The vet takes a blood sample and checks for anti-bodies from the last vaccine. If they are present, you don't have to have the shots done again and you can license your dog. And with the puppy shots, they still give them, but they don't give them as a cocktail shot all at once (do you remember from the other board, a couple of dogs had bad reactions to their puppy shots and were luckily able to get back in to the vet in time to be taken care of?). They will give them, separated out, over a slower course of time.

Holistic Vets aren't necessarily opposed to vaccines, they just question the need to give a dog a dose of virus once a year if a dog may already carry the anti-bodies. I'm just learing about them, so as I gain more knowledge, I'll fill you in. http://dachsie.org/ubb/biggrin.gif

~~Amy & Owen~~

[Wienergal]

Amy and Sue, thank you both so much for the useful information! Despite having dropped another $233 at the feet of my vet today (it was annual checkup day), I nevertheless feel strongly that I'll continue to vaccinate regularly. BUT one of the things I love about this board is all the different viewpoints that arise, so that everyone can make an informed decision on important matters like this. I do wonder about yearly vaccinations for the elderly dogs, and Peaches is definitely getting up there, and will talk to my vet next year about the possibility of slowing down on her as she ages. (My vet is not an automatic drugger, not by a long shot!)

That was interesting about distance from the Mexican border being the deciding factor in how often to vaccinate against rabies. And also about the cost of the new human treatment! YIKES! Any raccoons I encounter on the street will be given a wide berth by me!!! http://dachsie.org/ubb/biggrin.gif

[Krista]

Umm I live in Ohio -far from the mexican border but we are required to vacinate for rabies each year -even my brother's ferret Flower gets a yearly shot. I think a Major deciding factor is how much wildlife is around and we have a lot of critters in OH. I live in a suburban neighborhood, but an opossum lives under my shed and has her babies there each year from what I've heard. I've seen skunks and raccoons meandering around here too. Of course, Dayton has quite a few nature Reserves in the area, which really adds to our animal population.

[Krista]

BTW - Hey Amy,I don't want my boy to have "titters" http://dachsie.org/ubb/uh-oh.gif http://dachsie.org/ubb/lol.gif

I think the technical term for those blood tests is "Titer" pronounced {Tie Ter}

Sorry but that typo gave me a giggle http://dachsie.org/ubb/wink.gifThink it must be past my bedtime ....

[doxielover]

Penny's Aunt,

Here in San Diego the Rabies vac is every 3 years, not 1. Surprise! http://dachsie.org/ubb/biggrin.gif And we're VERY close to the Border!

Susan

[Penny's Aunt]

In SAN DIEGO???

When I lived in So. Cal, I think it was a state law that every dog had to be vaccinated every year. I can't believe that a city that is only spitting distance from the Mexican border changed it to 3 years, unless there has been some fantastic updating of the vaccine that I'm not aware of (which is possible).

I have a friend in Claremont that has 3 dogs. I'll ask her what's going on.

I mentioned this to a friend that used to work with me at the vet, & she said it may depend on whether or not an area/state every had (or recently had) an outbreak of rabies. That would explain the 1-yr rule in OH, wouldn't it? But San Diego?

If you happen to think of asking your vet about it, would you mind? You've got me very curious now! Is the vaccine improved, or does SD think that rabies is less of a problem than they used to?

[doxielover]

Sue,

We've got a lot of Coyote too (a lot of backyards against canyons and new Housing Development have numerous dog attacks/killings), don't Coyote carry Rabies?? So it IS surprising that the vac is every 3 years here! Sure, I'll ask my Vet about it and let you know. BTW, please read my post in 'General Health' about Limping and give me your input, ok? I'm going to ask my Vet about it next week, so I'll ask about the Rabies then too.

Susan http://dachsie.org/ubb/smile.gif

[Penny's Aunt]

Yes, coyotes can carry rabies. Any warm-blooded mammal can, except supposedly opossums, & I don't know the why of that.

Even gophers, rats & mice can carry it.

[wireweiners]

I think most rabies vaccines used now are good for three years. The state requirements vary depending on whether there has been a recent rabies outbreak and how educated the local officials are about the new vaccines. Advances in vaccine technology is why some of the vet schools are now recommending vaccinating older animals less often. The new genetically engineered vaccines can provide protection longer. Dr. Ellis said that within the next 5 years we will probably be giving most vaccines intranasally and that we most likely will only have to vaccinate once after the initial puppy vaccinations. Interesting isn't it.

[Tanya]

I spoke to a vet about the 3 year vaccination for rabies (I just happened to meet him at a BMX track) and he said our GA law is to vaccinate every year. I'm going to keep on every year. I couldn't stand it if something happened to my pups that I could have prevented. Titters?? /ubb/smilies/smile.gif

[Cindi]

I always thought that the requirement for rabies yearly was based on the number of rabid animals found in the state. In Texas, we are, and have been for years, in rabies quarantine which means you must carry your rabies certificate with you at all times. We are on yearly shots (and it IS the same shot that all other states use for 3 yr shots) because of the number of rabies cases in wild animals. Right now in our area we are having numerous skunks testing positive!!!!

Last year in Houston there was a rabid cow.

Cindi

[This message has been edited by Cindi (edited May 23, 2000).]

[wireweiners]

Hey Cindi, Cows and horses probably have more cases of rabies than dogs because most dogs are vaccinated and cows and horses aren't. Also because cows and horses graze with their heads down they are more likely to be bitten by a skunk. A dog will usually dance around a skunk and may avoid being bitten. Cows will just stand there and get bit.

[Cindi]

Certainly doesn't speak highly of cows' intelligence does it? /ubb/smilies/frown.gif
I haven't heard of horses being rabid...thank goodness. I'm sorry, but cows just don't elicit the warm fuzzies that horses do in me.

[Penny's Aunt]

My old vet said when he first started practice in the Yuba City, CA area, there was an outbreak of rabies. The first case known was a horse. The local vet found the horse unable to swallow, so he put his arm down the horse's throat, thinking there was a piece of baling wire or other foreign object stuck there. Then he contacted the nearest vet school at Davis, & a whole class of vet students trooped out there to see this mysterious case that no one knew what it was. THEY all reached down the horse's throat. I don't remember what triggered the rabies test, but when it came back positive, everyone who had had their arm down the horse's throat had to have anti-rabies shots. After that, they got rabid dogs, cats, goats, everything. Gophers would come out of their holes & attack dogs. Doc said the scariest thing he'd ever seen was a cat with rabies: they would stick a broom handle in the cage (not poking), & the cat would go wild attacking it.

His descriptions of the situation were so graphic, that I am terrified of rabies to this day, worse than most people.

Have you ever seen the Glenn Ford movie RAGE? (Not the George C. Scott one) I think it was in the 60's. It was about a man who got bitten by a rabid animal & had only a few days to get to help, but no transportation, I think. Very tense. Every time they showed that movie on TV, the following few days we had a bunch of calls for rabies vaccinations.

By the way, one way that horses & cows get rabies is from vampire bats (mostly in the south & Mexico). The bats will literally walk up to the animal, bite it, & I think I read where it has some stuff in its saliva that not only keeps the blood from coagulating, but keeps the animal from feeling the pain of the bite, too.

Where's my 50 yards of mosquito netting.... ?

[Tina]

Hello, I have not been around for a while, my garden, children and dachsies have kept me busy. But when I noticed this thread I felt that I must answer. I have been "lucky" enough to see some serious outbreaks of infectious diseases here in Finland. We had an outbreak of rabies in 1990, and since that I have recommended that every single dog should be vaccinated against it. We have recommendations that all dogs should be vaccinated every other year and those used for hunting of badgers, foxes and raccoon-dogs must have their shots every year. During the outbreak there was a dog who did not become furious , instead it became overtly friendly towards all people and visited the yard of an elementary school, licked the hands and faces of all children, went home, became drowsy, was paralyzed and died some days later. Only then did the owners contact the vet and the cause of the disease was found out. And then the telephones of all vets and physicians were jammed with calls ... In those days rabies vaccinations were not routinely carried out.
Quite so serious situation (regarding humans)was not when one of the distemper vaccines in our country did not give enough protection and several young, vaccinated dogs died of distemper. After that was given the recommendation that vets should use different brands of vaccines alternatively.
So I think that if there is a possibility that you can prevent a disease with vaccinations, you should do it. Afterwards it feels better when you know you did everything you could to prevent the illness... and it can save the life of your pet and many others.

[WOTANSMUTTI]

The mere thought of a rabid gopher is one to set chills down my spine! /ubb/smilies/mutant.gif

Possums are marsupials, and marsupials have physically different brains than placentals. I don't know what this bit of trivia could mean, but it's interesting-huh?

When I was a Peacecorps person and had X number of vaccinations to live in Nepal, I went through a series of rabies prophelactic vacs. All I remember is that there were a lot and they hurt (all in the arm! )

[wireweiners]

Nepal, huh? Cool, Wotansmutti. Did you climb any mountains? I saw the Imax feature Everest and that was enough to keep my feet on the (flat) ground. /ubb/smilies/smile.gif

Many people don't know that rabies has 2 forms, furious and dumb. In the dumb form, the animal doesn't act "mad" but will have trouble swallowing, walking, and will drool. Many people think the animal has something stuck in its throat and will stick their hands in the animals mouth and expose themselves to rabies. Anytime you see a wild animal that doesn't have a natural fear of humans and is acting strange, avoid it at all costs.