Duck Butter's seizures

[Mark]

Hi everyone,

I haven't mentioned this before and we weren't really sure it was anything. Over the last 2 1/2 years Duck Butter had 2 obvious major seizures, one 2 1/2 years ago and one over a year ago. These completely incapacitated her while it ran it's course and went away within 10 minutes. She seemed Ok by wrapping her with a large towel, covering head & all and holding her. It was like her whole body cramped. Arched back and unable to move. One of the times she had a chew in her mouth and I almost couldn't pry it out. The other things we've noticed were (more recently) smacking/licking her lips like a dog will do if they have something caught in their front teeth and (less frequently) standing with a look on her face like she's confused for up to 2 minutes. We didn't realize these were mini seizures. I feel bad we hadn't said anything before, but they weren't lasting, were infrequent until recently and if I don't make a list when going to the vet . . . darn it - I forget things. We kept saying next time we take DB in for anything we need to mention this. And most the time she is fine, healthy, active and happy. Well, this time we made a list!

We took Top Spin (for his annual check up) to our Vets yesterday and when we told her about DB, she confirmed that these are all seizures, the latter 2 types being mini's. She also said that Duck Butter's daughter, Harley (Masse's sister) was in this past August having had the major type. The great folks that got Three Rails (the father) also took Masse's sister and have always taken them to our vet. Since DB was a PM kid we're all pretty sure it's genetic.

She said we should by-pass her with Duck Butter and go directly to Dr. Wolf at Oakland Veterinary Referral Service, which is great . . .we like him a lot . . . he did Duck Butter's back surgery and treated Masse for the Spinal Infarc. http://www.ovrs.com She could put her on Phenobarb or (?), but would rather that she be seen by a neurologist for his opinion.

Dr. Wolf is out until Nov. 25th, but no one feels it should be a problem to wait till then. He's off somewhere teaching some surgical procedures he uses.

Any thoughts on this would be appreciated.

Mark

[WOTANSMUTTI]

Mark!

Sorry to hear about DB's seizures!Would putting her on meds reduce the small ones?

I know this sounds "trite" in comparison to a dachsie furkid- but years ago my guinea pig had seizures and the vet assured me that it hurt mort to watch them than what the piggie felt. It was still a horrible thing to go through!

I hope taking Duck Butter to the Vet specialist will get you all the answers you need.

sending non-seizure Rayzzzzzzz

Sonja and Wo

[Mark]

Hi Sonja,

Thanks for the RAYZ and thoughts. Our Vet was hesitant to do so until being seen by Dr. Wolf. He is a pretty well known expert, has a great deal of Dachsie experience and knows Duck Butter very well. She assured us that if Dr Wolfe says that the meds are the way to go that it will be the right kind for her, that it will minimize the severe ones and all but eliminate the small ones. There are several type meds though and our Vet didn't want to just start guessing. I like that about her.

I agree, that the hard part is watching her have them . . . she always seems none the worse for wear. http://dachsie.org/ubb/smilies/biggrin.gif

Thanks again,

Mark

[Shelbie]

Oh no, we were only talking about Duck Butter this morning, together with Top Spin and Masse. Poor old DB. Please give her a big kiss from Shelbie and one from her Mum too. Keep us informed, that wooshing noise you hear is all the rayz coming over from London!

[Oscar's Mom]

I hope everything goes well at DB's appointment. Keep us posted.

[Dolly's Mom]

Mark,

Please keep us posted on Duck Butter. It must be a panicky thing to watch her have one
of these seizures. Sending Dolly & Madison rays to DB and a prayer to that Dr. Wolf (good name for a vet) will be able to give you good answers and meds to help DB.

PS....I don't know where you and your family live but if you are from far away of Oakland, we are about 55 miles away. We have an extra room with a double futon....dog hair included...if you need a place to stay while you're here. Just let me know.

Sandi, Mark & the grrrrrrls

[Mark]

Thanks for the good wishes & RAYZ http://dachsie.org/ubb/smilies/smile.gif ,

Thanks too for the offer Sandi! We are only 10-15 minutes from Dr. Wolf's clinic and they are also our choice of emergency clinic.

Hmmm, I hear a whooshing noise with a Brit accent http://dachsie.org/ubb/smilies/lol.gif

Mark

[Krista]

Rays to the girl! Hope this can be cleared up. I have heard of many dogs not being given meds if the seizures are infrequent.

this is likely a just a "basic" level of knowledge link....maybe it will have something helpful though. http://www.peteducation.com/dogs/epilepsy.htm

I know someone psoted a canine epilepsy site here not to long ago...might have even been you!

[~Jen~]

Sending Mega dachsie Rayzzzzzzzzzzzzzz to DB. Hope everything checks out ok http://dachsie.org/ubb/smilies/smile.gif

Jen

[Penny's Aunt]

http://canine-epilepsy.net is the place to look for info.

A lot of seizures are diagnosed as idiopathic epilepsy, after all the other possible causes are ruled out. "Idiopathic" mean "we don't know what causes it".

Since you are going to a specialist, he probably won't just ASSUME it's epilepsy. There are things that can mimic epilepsy, & those have to be ruled out before a diagnosis can be made.

Good luck.

[Wotan, Shakti & Gaudi Inc]

We send our best wishes out to DB. I know how hard it is to witness seizures in doxies as Wotan and Gaudi both have them. Like your DB, Gaudi also has mini type seizures only with him he licks the air rapidly for many minutes at a time...and then he's fine.
May your Dr. Wolf be of help. We ourselves have never found a vet who says anything can stop our doxies infrequent seizures. Like others said here, the vets just tell us it's harder to be a witness to a seizure than it is for the dog experiencing one, as supposedly they don't recall it.

------------------
Bridget, Wotan, Shakti & Gaudi
stop by and see Dachshund stories and photos (http://members.nbci.com/dachsielove/stories.htm)

[Mark]

Hi everyone . . . Thanks, so much for the RAYZ, concern and websites. I'll check all the sites from Krista & Sue throughout the day. Whatever the diagnosis, I will be sure to let everyone know. Bridget, we were talking last night and both figured that she doesn't even know the seizures happen. She is absolutely normal before and after.

Thanks again everyone . . . like I already knew . . . you're the best!

Mark

[~Jen~]

Hope DB gets along better than ever Mark... i know how scary seizures can be... Winston had one induced by a fever he had when he was sick with brochitis last winter... it was very scary he just kinda sat there with a glazed look and his head shook. The vet. assured us that it was probably only due to the fact that his fever was way high he hasnt had one since. Thank goodness. Im glad to hear your vet. is working so closely in making sure DB gets the right kind of treatment. Hope all goes well!!

Jen and the gang

[TessieMom]

Hope that Duck Butter is doing great and they can figure out a way to control the seizures! Take care, Rena

[Roxane]

Sitting by waiting for what I hope will be happy encouraging news.
Roxane

[weenie]

Hi Mark,

I am so sorry to hear about DB. Many rayz on their way......

I wanted to present another option to you. When my mom's boxer started having seizures, our vet put him on Phenobarbitol right away and the dog stayed at the vets for a few days until the meds were regulated. Our vet suggested that if the Phenobarb didn't work, we should see a "neurologist" at the Ohio State University Vetinary Hospital in Columbus, OH. They are one of the top teaching facilities in the country and they have state of the art diagnostic equipment (CT and MRI).

If it wouldn't be a hardship to get DB there, I would ask your vet for a referral. Due to the nature of the problem, they should be able to see you within a reasonable amount of time.

BTW.....fortunately the Phenobarb did work on my mom's dog. He never had another seizure since. I hope that everything works out for you, please keep me posted.

-Kris

[weenie]

Sorry, I almost forgot.....

here's a site link for you to check out if you are interested.....
http://www.vet.ohio-state.edu/docs/referral/index.html

[Mark]

Thanks everone,

All the RAYZ are very appreciated!

Thanks for the info Kris! We will check it out and discuss it with our primary Vet to see if she wants us to take her to OSU. She may opt for us to just wait for Dr. Wolf as he is one of the top neurologists in the country and knows us & our kids.

Hmmm, I checked the sites for Epilepsy from Krista & Sue . . . there are a number of things that just do not meet that profile, although I'll bet variations from dog to dog are probably quite common. An example is that even with the 2 big seizures . . . there were no pre or post symptoms as mentioned.

Whether we go to OSU or Dr. Wolf, I'm sure they will find the problem and make an appropriate recommendation. The clinic called this morning and said that Dr. Wolf may try to make it back to see DB between sessions. They are so cool!

I'll let you all know what, when & where! http://dachsie.org/ubb/smilies/biggrin.gif

Mark

[Tanya]

Oh my gosh where have I been!! I hope Duck Butter continues to do well. Sorry I didn't see this till now. Please let me know what you find out. Sending love to Agent DB...oops did I blow her cover!

[Mark]

Hi Tanya,

She's pretty good. She had a mini spell a few days ago. She threw up a white foamy something or other and that's the first time that has happened. Otherwise, for the most part, she is fine. We have a tentative appointment for the end of the month or sooner if Dr. Wolf can break away from his mentoring duties.

Duck Butter appreciates all the love and healing RAYZ, but wants to give hers to Queenie & Kibby, for now . . . they need them a lot more!
Oh, and she "really" thanks you for blowing her cover! <IMG SRC="http://dachsie.org/ubb/cwmsmilies/cwm16.gif" border=0> She won't be able to go to Istanbul without a disguise now! http://dachsie.org/ubb/smilies/lol.gif

Mark

[Cindi]

Mark,
I do not believe I have asked this before but being old if I did and you answered and I forgot http://dachsie.org/ubb/smilies/smile.gif please tell me again. What is your child's pedigree? By any chance do you have CH Spartan's Sloe Gin Fizz or Tori Jarice's Wee Angus anywhere in her/their background? Having bred that lineage extensively, closely and not closely, and being one of 3 breeders that had to in effect 'kill' the line (no we didn't do what you are thinking. We just stopped breeding the line nearly completely.) I can tell you that the seizures you describe are genetic - they were in our case. Phenobarb kept my 11 yr old under control for 8 yrs and the last 5 we also used it in conjunction with Potassium Bromide. The last was a godsend because Pheno can make the dogs lethargic and the PB brought her back to her normal hunting lifestyle. In this particular line of dogs, the seizures mainly did not show up until the dog was 5 yrs old.

[Mark]

Hi Cindi,

No I don't see either of those dogs or kennels in her line. Of course, at this point I'm not even sure the Pedigree papers are for real. DB was found in a PM that did Cocker Spaniels. Apparently the other Dachsie PM gave her to them in payment for something.

It's encouraging to hear that the meds let yours live such a long & fairly normal life. I really appreciate your sharing that. DB was 7 yrs. old on October 20th.

Our vet was right on track then when she said it was probably genetic. Thanks for the info Cindi . . . I feel a little better already.

Mark

[Roxane]

Aside for my concern for DB's return to a "no seizure" life, let me step in, for just a moment, to say Hooray for Cindi.
You set the best example in the world by discovering and stopping an inherited problem through sound breeding practices.http://dachsie.org/ubb/smilies/kiss2.gif
Roxane, Greta and Baylea

[Cindi]

In my mind that is what reputable breeders should do....be honest and ethical and ethical means doing what is best for the breed regardless of what my heart felt. I do thank you for the kind words from the bottom of that broken heart.
And best of luck with DB. I have faith that she will have a long, happy life!!!!

[Mark]

There isn't much to report, we saw Dr. Wolf, who did a very thorough exam and he has advised that at this time the seizures are too infrequent to consider ongoing medication. He drew blood to do a complete workup and will call us and our regular Vet with the results.

Everyone there remembered Duck Butter from her back surgery and made a really big fuss, carrying her to all the rooms to visit the other specialists and techs. http://dachsie.org/ubb/smilies/biggrin.gif

Even they are all amazed at "how" complete her recovery from her spinal "explosion" has been. http://dachsie.org/ubb/smilies/smile.gif

Mark

[Krista]

sounds like good news to me Mark! I'm gald she doesn't appear to need meds for this.

I know of many dogs that have seizures from time to time that are not medicated and continue to live long happy lives, seemingly unaffected by them. I hope and pray that this holds true for Duck Butter too.

[pluto'slanie]

Mark, I just came across this thread and am glad to hear that DB is doing better. Pluto and I send rayzzz and hugs and http://dachsie.org/ubb/smilies/kiss2.gif for a good recovery. Lanie

[Mark]

Hi Krista,

Thank you for your encouragement about DB having a long life. At first I was disappointed that we weren't going to get meds, but then and now when I think about it . . . to take medicine "everyday" for one or two major seizures per year is kinda like swatting a fly with a bazooka! http://dachsie.org/ubb/smilies/biggrin.gif

Hi Lanie,

Thanks for the rayzzz & hugs. I love the way everyone on the board cares so much for each other and their "kids".

Mark <IMG SRC="http://dachsie.org/ubb/cwmsmilies/cwm38.gif" border=0>

[Tanya]

Hi Mark, Just saw your update on DB. I hope all will be ok.I remember a very long time ago my granny had a chihuahua named Bitsy who occassionally has seizures. Bitsy lived a good long time and was as happy as a dog could be. Again, this was long ago and I'm almost positive she was never even offered meds. It scared us all if we witnessed a seizure and Bitsy would seem to be tired for a couple of days, but other than that, she was fine. Hope DB does well and weare sending love and hugs to duck Butter.
Tanya

[Mark]

Hi Tanya,

Thanks for the encouragement! It is comforting to know that so many dogs with similar difficulties have lived long & happy lives.

Mark

[Wienergal]

Hi, Mark!

The news sounds good! Hoping for the best for DB--and for you, of course! Wish I knew something about seizures, but can only send lots of raaaaaaayyyyyyzzzz your way.

So here they come!!

<IMG SRC="http://dachsie.org/ubb/cwmsmilies/cwm12.gif" border=0> <IMG SRC="http://dachsie.org/ubb/cwmsmilies/cwm12.gif" border=0> <IMG SRC="http://dachsie.org/ubb/cwmsmilies/cwm12.gif" border=0> <IMG SRC="http://dachsie.org/ubb/cwmsmilies/cwm12.gif" border=0>

[Mrs.F]

Hi Mark,
I'm behind on a lot of the "news" because it's been hard to supervise my little fighters while I'm on the computer!
Anyway, my Penny has had several mysterious seizures during her almost 2 years. She's not on meds either because of the infrequency of the seizures.
As frightening as the seizures are for us, (I HATE them, but I don't freak out quite as much as I used to), Penny seems to take them in stride - just sleeps them off and laps up the extra attention we lavish on her afterwards!

Here's hoping that Duck Butter's future seizures will be very few and far between!

Heidi

[Mark]

Hi Pamela . . . thanks for the encouragement and raaaaaaayyyyyyzzzz! (I'll take all I can get http://dachsie.org/ubb/smilies/biggrin.gif )

Hi Heidi,

Yeah, they use to freak us out too. Now when they happen we wrap her in a towel or blanket (head to toe) and hold her . . . it seems to help. Thanks, I hope Penny's are few a far between, also.

Mark

[Augie Dog]

Mark,

Aug seams to dream alot during sleep. Other than snoring like a freight train<IMG SRC="http://dachsie.org/ubb/cwmsmilies/cwm25.gif" border=0> he gets real wierd facial twitches, legs move, breathing not regular. I will wake him up and he will give me a stern l@@k and go back to sleep.

I seen dogs dream before, but Aug is active. Are seizures like that?

Daivd

[pluto'slanie]

Hi David, I have no experience w/ seizures, but have with doggie dreams. Pluto shakes, rattles and rolls even barking and tail wagging in his dreams. I think dogs dream and it looks like the REM stage of sleep. Unless I'm wrong a seizure would happen when the dog was awake. I'm sure one of our board experts could educate all of us on that. http://dachsie.org/ubb/smilies/kiss2.gif to Augie that cute pup.
Lanie

<FONT COLOR="#00FFFF" SIZE="1" FACE="Verdana, Arial">This message has been edited by pluto'slanie on December 03, 2000 at 03:35 PM</font>

[Mark]

Absolutely right Lanie! Both Masse & Top Spin have dreams like Augie, David . . . but Duck Butter does not. Her seizures are while she is wide awake and are described, in depth, in the first post of this thread.

Mark

[Dukey's Mom]

Mark,

I am just seeing this. How scary! I don't have any first hand experience, but another rescue worker has 4 pups, 3 out of the 4 have seizures. She says that food can affect them. Have you heard this at all?

I can ask her how she handles her guys, there are not on meds either.

I predict a long healthy life for Duck Butter ( I love that name!)

Andrea

[Mark]

Hi Andrea,

Thanks for the great prediction (and the name compliment).

I have noticed that half the time she gets them it's when she's been working on a chewie or just after, but we detect no connection to food.

I would like to hear how she handles the seizures to see if there is more that we could do for her when it happens.

Thanks for responding and I am glad to see Queenie is doing so well!

Mark

[Dukey's Mom]

Hi Mark,

Here is the advice I got.
I am dissecting the email that was sent to me.

First, be supportive. Don't try to bring him out of it.

Second, Try to time it, or at least get a good estimate, keep a log, to see if they become longer in length.

Third, Pay attention to what DB does during it, again keep notes. Also, what was he doing exactly prior to the seizure. Was he behaving strangely, ie, moving his head funny, eyes rolling etc. Did he become incontingent during the seizure, vomit afterwards.

If the seizure involves the entire body DB's muscles are constricted and he will not breathe until after the seizure is over.The diaphragm is a muscle and constricts so breathing is difficult. I guess this is just another part of it.

Call your vet immediately afterward to see if he needs to be seen. Keep an eye on him after the fact to make sure all motor skills are back.

My friend says the most difficult part is to not panic, it, I guess, is very graphic.

Mark, I hope this helps in some way, and is useful.

Her dogs have been having them for years, and are still not on medication.

Duck Butter has a great dad, and he'll be fine.

Andrea

[Mark]

Hi Andrea,

Thanks for the tips! Some we already follow and the rest we will integrate into what we're doing right.

Please thank your friend for me and we'll keep everyone posted of any changes.

I'm glad to see Queenie continues to feel better and act like a normal kid. http://dachsie.org/ubb/smilies/smile.gif

Mark

[weenie]

Hi Mark!

I was just getting caught up on all of the posts. I am glad that you got relatively good news about Duck Butter. My mom's last Boxer had to be on Phenobarbatol for his seizures and I know first hand how this can affect the owner as well as the dog.

Andrea gives really great advice. She pretty much covered it all. Also make sure to move anything that may be in the immediate area out of the way. I know that may sound trivial but you don't want them to accidentally hit their head on something.

Rayz to DB from me and Willi. Please keep us posted on how she is doing.

-Kris

<img src=http://www.geocities.com/willidoxie/wally.gif>

[Mark]

Hi Kris,

Thank you for your kind words & wishes. http://dachsie.org/ubb/smilies/smile.gif

We definitely will keep everyone posted of any changes.

Mark