Please------ Need Advice

[Heide]

I have posted before about the fighting between Cassie and Maggie. Well last night was the 3rd time.
The second time I got bit in the leg trying to seperate them.
I just am at wits end.
Cassie attacks Maggie, for what reason I am not sure.
Last night I had bent down to get Benjamin out of his crate from eating dinner and Cassie and Maggie were both at my feet. Then all of a sudden Cassie was on Maggie. Maggie was crying and Cassie had her good on her back. Maggie ran under our bed and Cassie followed her still attacking her.:crying: :crying: David was able to get them apart finally. She got Maggie good on her back. She was bleeding.:crying:
Maggie is scared to death of her and I guess Cassie know's this and takes advantage of it. She wants to be top dog. But Natasha is that. She put Cassie in her place right off after Cassie came here. Of course Kamper and Benjamin could care less who is top dog. Poor Benjamin was in my arms just shaking it scared him too.
I cannot have Maggie being afraid all the time.
I just dont know what to do.????
I love them all to pieces. I am afraid Maggie is going to get really hurt.
Other than that Cassie is a very loving girl. I just dont know why she wants to hurt Maggie.
Maggie stays to herself and digs and just wants pets now and then and is very easy to please. She is very laid back. Never bothers anyone.
Please if any of you can help I would appreicate it. I just keep :crying: when I think about that last night. Maggie dont want to even walk by her. WHAT DO I DO????

[TessieMom]

If you take Maggie to obedience it should help the problem. Lucy and Tess have this problem and Lucy outweighs Tess by a factor of 2 to 2.5 times. Tess will go through phases of being frightened of Lucy, but she just hides under the bed when that happens. They seem to be fine when I am not around. However, when Tess goes to obedience, she does get her confidence boosted and seems to be a different dog. Good luck. Use a squirt bottle to separate them so you do get bit, or make a loud nose or throw something!

[Heide]

Every thing seems to be ok when we are not around also.
I cleaned Maggie up and put her on our bed last night and then I took her down this morning to eat. She is under our bed and has not come out since.
She whimpers when I pick her up.
It breaks my heart to see her like this.
We have obedience classes opening in January near us. I am going to take her to that.
I have been so upset with Cassie I have not pet her. I know that is probably wrong, but what she did really upset's me.
I feel guilty about not being able to get Maggie from her sooner. After I got bit last time, I was scared to get them apart. Thank goodness David did. HE just yelled at them under the bed and slammed his hands down on the carpet and it stopped.
I had quite the set too with Cassie also. I got down on her level and looked her straight in her eyes and told her that type of behavior WILL NOT BE TOLERATED.
She knows I am very upset with her.
After I type this I will sit down again with her and pet her.
She out weighs Maggie also. Probably by about 10 pounds.
Goodness its like having children fighting.
Thank you Rena for your input.

[Mark]

And that is not to be taken lightly or to be left unresolved. I agree that obed training is a must, but it goes deeper. Short of physical harm they must be allowed to work it out. Plus, it must be clear to them that you and hubby *are* the true Alphas and what the boundaries are. If this is not possible then a pet behaviorist can help.

Please keep us posted.

[maryanne]

I hope it all works out. You're lucky you have the option of serious obedience classes. I've just found out that here there's not even an official qualification. When I asked the vet in my neighbourhood (my regular vet is in another district and he doesn't do behaviour) about some of López's behaviour problems I didn't feel at all confident she knew what she was talking about.
Lots of people on the board have spoken wonders about obedience training, I'm sure that it'll work for Cassie.

[lotsadox]

Maryanne, I wish that you did have access to obedience. It can really help. Your vet may be a well qualified vet, just not up on canine behaviour. Just like not all vets are well versed in canine nutrition, not all are well versed in canine behaviour.

Heide, I just thought of something. It might help to read one of the Jan Fennell books on pack behaviour or also Leader of the Pack. Establishing yourself as "Alpha" will help keep the "pack" in line. No struggle for them to be "Alpha".

[Steven]

Wouldn't obedience training be good for both Maggie -- to get confidence up -- and for Cassie -- get calm her down? I'd see about that and maybe take them both to the same class, perhaps with your husband handling one of them.

Reading Leader of the Pack is a great idea -- I still have to get it. Isn't there two different alpha types? Humans and then the doggie alpha? I'm not sure, but I've heard that here a couple of times. Either way, it does sound like Cassie wants to be higher in the pack order then Maggie. Maggie sounds like a sweet dachsie and it's a shame that Cassie takes advantage of that.

I know that their suppose to work out the pack order, but when it gets to blooding being drawn, I think the super alphas -- humans -- should step in. Perhaps I'm wrong, it seems like Cassie wants to kill Maggie and in her mind maybe that's the only way to get higher in pack order.

[Mark]

I meant obed training for both, not in the same class though..

And, yes, we are the SuperAlphas, but . . . there will also always be a top dog, a beta and an omega. It is their nature and instinct. :blue:

[Steven]

I forgot to mention that in LC's pup class we learned a good way to stop them from biting you when their playing. Though I don't know if it'll work in this case.

It's called "Gotcha" and it's a "mind game". Basically it's suppose to stop them from mistakening you for their playmate. What you do is go up to them and say "Gotcha" in a nice playful sorta laughing voice, if not playful it'll probably back fire on you. While your saying "Gotcha" grab their collar or harness and give a treat once they realize it's you. You want to do this when you think of it and it's probably best to do it when their not paying attention to you -- so their used to that.

After you've got the gotcha down and the little one is good with it, start to pull them out of what they are doing. If their playing, pull them away for a couple of seconds or for good. It's suppose to let them know it's time to do something else and not to bite you.

[Heide]

believe they know that David and I are the Super Alpha's.
I dont know what the struggle is between Cassie and Maggie. Its not like Maggie is trying to be top dog. Atleast I have never noticed that kind of behavior. I know that the first time there was a struggle with Natasha and Cassie, it was proven right then and there who was top dog. Cassie backed down right away. She has never bothered with her again.
I wonder if in someway I have done something to make Cassie think that Maggie is more superior.
I will be getting that book.
I sure need this to stop. I dont want Maggie badly hurt. I wont have that.
They have got to figure out some nutral ground.

[Kim H.]

we are lucky our little sisters get along. Angel is the alpha & Cassie is the beta (NOT the omega, the beta:raz:, very important difference to her). Cassie has her own strategies for winning arguments.

I hope there is a way for Maggie to learn to say, "Look - you may be dominant to me, but I won't let you hurt me!!":(

The Monks of New Skete have also written good books on pack order/rules.

[Mark]

Often when a new member comes to the pack . . . certain subordinates become an alpha wannabe. It may not be anything you've done.

However . . .

Pack order must be reinforced by the SuperAlphas. TopDog is first to do or get anything, Beta next and so on. By feeding the alpha dog first you are telling the others . . . this is Top Dog. As they see and realize this . . . they are far less likely to challenge the Alpha Dog for the position.

I hope this helps and please do keep us posted. :)

[Heide]

that makes sense. So should I feed Natasha then Maggie then Cassie so on and so forth?
Right now the way I feed is Kamper and Cassie then Maggie then Benjamin and Natasha has to be fed in our bathroom since her food is different. I feed Benjamin in his x-pen since the others are food aggressive

[Mark]

They should be fed in pack order, greeted by both of you in pack order, given treats in pack order . . . anything that is done is in pack order. :)

[lotsadox]

That's really interesting, Mark. Good info. There's so much to learn about the whole pack mentality. I love hearing from people who are knowledgeable. Thanks.

[dutchman]

You have already received a lot of great advice. The ones I have to watch are middle boy Frank and bottom boy Dexer. IF Frank thinsk Dexter is getting too much attention he will get jealous and problems can develop. IF Tanner is there he will pick up on this even before I do and as alpha dog get between the other two.

Now a couple of things. First if two dachsunds are in a fight the best way to pull them apart is to use their tails. If you have to pull them apart yourself try to pick the agressor and pull them off using theior tail. Second should your hand or arm get bit don't try to jerk away while they have their mouth clamped down. Let your arm move with their head while you get their attention. The one time Frank grabbed my hand and thought he had Dexter I put my hand between them to fend off an attack, he let go as soon as he realkized it was me. MT leting you arm.hand go with their head you will still get the ounture wounds bout will minimize the chance of receiving a big ripping tear in your fleash. IF bit shout the dogs name and make geting their attention the number one issue.

No as bfar as bites go human or dog (victim) wash the wound soak it at least 2 (3-4 is better) times a day for the first couple of days keep it draining. IF their is any sign of infection at all keep it oepn and draining till the infection has cleared up. IF infected get antibotics. The trama to the victim will last any where from a few days to a few months. For a while Dexter would not get close to Frank. Now he will get close but is still leary of Frank most of the time.

Yes poack order is imprtant. HEn I get home the order the boys get out of their kennels are Tanner, Frank, Dexter. That is also the order they are feed, given treat or even helped up on the bed if they are all there at the same time and all want help.

Good luck, keep us posted.

[Heide]

last night when our daughter came home from work. She had bent down to pet them all as they were at her feet. Cassie went immediately after Maggie. Oh my God the screaming cry out of Maggie was Just Awful. We got them apart by shouting and slamming our hands on the carpet. Maggie has a big open wound on her head. We cleaned it and put antibiotic ointment on it. I dont think it needs stitches. It wasnt bleeding. Its just a straight long cut.
Nothing was any different, when our daughter went to pet them all. All were excited and that is when she lit into Maggie.
I called my vet and she said she will be alright until Monday and then bring Maggie in so she can look at her wounds from last night and day before.
She said in the meantime I need to keep them seperated. So that is what I am going to do. She said once blood is drawn I have to keep Maggie safe.
This is just breaking my heart. I love Cassie to pieces but I cannot tolerate this behavior. She may kill Maggie. SO as much as it is killing me, I have to let Cassie go. She needs to be in a home where she is not with other females. I am going to contact CCDR this morning where I got her from and talk to Diane.
I cannot tell you how much this is tearing me apart, but I must keep Maggie safe too. I just sit here crying my eyes out, over this decision that has to be made. It is breaking me in two. Oh you guys I am just torn up.

[maryanne]

I'm so sorry to read this update. Isn't there any classes or behaviourist near you where she could start immediately? Or maybe Cassie could wear a muzzle until you can get her to classes? If not, it's perfectly understandable that Maggie's well-being should come first, especially as she's not the one starting anything.
Whatever decision you take you're thinking the best thing for everybody. You're certainly having a horrible week what with everything. A big supportive hug from López and me.

[Heide]

I looked up behavorists in the area there is none.
We live in MS. we are kind of behind the times here.
I dont want to have to muzzle her.
I emailed Diane and am waiting to hear back from her.
I blame myself for not getting the pack right. I should of done something better. I thought they had it all worked out.
Classes dont start until January and I dont know that would really help at this point. I think that Cassie knows that Maggie is scared to death of her and is therefore able to take advantage of this situation.
Cassie is such a beautiful loving girl. Her long coat has grown in so pretty from when she had mange before we adopted her. She loves kids. She just needs to be where she can be top dog and not around a timid female.
Believe me this has been the most horrible 2 days. I am an emotional mess.
On top of this I am waiting for the results to come back from Benjamins biopsy.
Maybe I am not cut out to be a good doxie mom.:crying: :crying:

[alfina]

Oh Heide, big hug to your and Maggie. It is hard in a situation like this to make any desicion and feel good about it because the emotions are still so raw. We will be all here to support you. :heart:

[maryanne]

Heide you are the BEST Dachsie Mom!!!!!

Sometimes things happen beyond our control and it's not our fault. Just think how happy your dogs are! Ok, now Cassie has issues, but it's not your fault, YOU didn't bring her up, you just took her in out of the goodness of your heart and did the best you could. Sometimes people (dogs) just don't get on and it's difficult to change them.

Don't blame yourself!

[Mark]

one of the best Dachsie moms we know. So don't you get hung up on the two worst words in the Dictionary . . . *what if*. That will not help you or the puppers.

Are there any nearby towns (hour drive or so) where there might be a behaviorist? It might cost some extra $, but . . .

At this point one of you hooman alphas need to put Cassie in her place beyond any doubt, for any aggressive act . . . we're talking *chin bop* for discipline. A chin bop will startle Cassie and put in in her place . . . you form a fist with your hand, then with the fleshy circle formed atop your forefinger rap her chin sharply upward. Not enough to hurt her, the blow itself is not the discplinary part . . . the goal is to simply make her teeth "clack" together. It startles them so much they cease what is going on. I know it is hard to react that quickly but it is doable and all hooAlphas in the household should know how to do it and be prepared to do so, without hesitation.

And continue (all of you) to reinforce pack order. Clearly Cassie thought Maggie was going to get the first greeting from your daughter. One way to do that in this situation is to ignore them all for a few minutes until they calm down, then call Cassie aside for the first greeting and so on.

If all fails then, yes, it may be necessary to rehome Cassie. We know how hard that is because in one case we have had to do it.

Good luck and keep us posted. Our prayers and thoughts and RAYZ are with you and your pack. :rayz: :rayz: :rayz: :rayz: :rayz: :rayz:

[lotsadox]

Oh, Heide, I'm so sorry. Are you absolutely sure that there is no way that you can keep them apart when you're not there until you can work this out? I had a similar problem (though not as bad) when we brought Amanda and CC into the house. Amanda did not like the attention that Bogart got and took after him a couple of times. Since she was about 22 lbs and he was 12 lbs it was really scary. After that, Amanda had to be crated whenever they weren't supervised. Gradually, they worked things out and are now best buds. I was hoping that something like that would happen with Cassie and Maggie.

[Lauri Gengor]

Heide, your the best dachshund mom ever. Your doing the best you can. It can be so hard to intregrate a new member in the pack. I did myself with Mirri, but being a pup she wa easier being accepted by my two older girls. The rescue Im in the process of trying to apply for is another matter. How will I do? Can I make this work? I will not give advice, you have others here that already did. I will just give encouragement and say Im using you as an example to make my pack work. Your help and encouragement to myself and others here have tremendously helped. You may not know how much. My dachi hugs to you and a big thank you, your the best as a loving mom. Cassie and Benjamin may just need time. My Mirri is still hitting obstacles as far as the pack, but it gets better everyday!

[Kim H.]

It is NOT your fault that Cassie is aggressive to Maggie! She had her own issues before you got her. Think how many dog owners know NOTHING about pack order, and you have tried to follow it. It would be horrible to have to be hypervigilant at all times just so nobody gets killed. You are a terrific dachsie mom who would do the best for both dogs by making sure they both end up safe and happy.

:rayz: :rayz: :rayz:

[TessieMom]

I am so sorry that you had another problem with Cassie. It sounds like she was trying to keep Maggie from getting a pet. I did have a foster that hated Lucy and nothing would do except to crate them. Eventually, they did get better and he could come out of the crate. Anytime he even started to act aggressive, Mr. Gage was back in the crate. I think he finally figured out that if I am nice to everyone, I get to stay out. Again, he never did it while I was not around, it was always in front of me but I never felt that I could completely trust him.

[Heide]

She will take her back.
We are going to try and work something out for next weekend.
In the meantime I am going to do like Mark said. Make sure that everything is Cassie first, from petting to feeding and treats.
Maybe it will work and we wont have a problem anymore. I dont know.
I can tell you I am scared too death. I am so afraid for Maggie.
I am letting them hang out in the bedroom with me while I am on the computer.
Maggie wants so much for them to be friends. She goes up to Cassie tail wagging and doing this sad little whine. Cassie is wagging her tail at the same time. But I wish Maggie would just let her alone. It makes me on pins and needles.
After thinking about last night, I guess that my daughter was going to pet Maggie first.
I wonder what went wrong in the dominant heiarchey?
I have been reading some on this Alpha stuff. I have never had to deal so much with this situation.
I am a total basket case today. Eyes are swollen and hurt from crying and have a headache that wont stop. STRESS!!!
Thank you family for all your support and suggestions.
I so need it.

[Mark]

Jean asks, did this start just recently . . . say, when rescues started being added to the pack? Perhaps she feels insecure in her pack position and is trying to re-establish herself? Or has it always been touch and go? Just something we thought of . . .

We hope & pray it works out for you, Heide . . . if not, there is some comfort in knowing she has a place to go.

[Steven]

:(
Heide, you are a great dachsie mom, just the fact that your thinking of ways to fix this shows that. You're even considering sending her to another home where Cassie could rule the roost. How many people do you think would either give them to a shelter (kill shelter perhaps) or put them outside for good? Lots of people would. But you want to make everyone safe and happy.

As for Cassie and her acting, until she can be relocated take some of the advice here and work on it. Do a chin pop, use a squirt bottle or water gun (keep it in your pocket) or perhaps crate her for acting out. All the hoomans in the house should know and do those. I'm sure this is hard and thinking of sending her away is hard.

[Heide]

I have been racking my brain to try and remember when this all first started. I know the first time was over a rawhide. So I took them away and they have not been allowed those anymore.
Then the second time I was in the restroom and they always come in with me, then Maggie had gone around on the side of me by the toilet and I cant remember if I reached down and petted her or not, but they started fighting. That is when I got bit in the left thigh. I was trying to get them away from one another and grabbed at one of them and Maggie bit me in the leg accidently. Then finally they stopped.
The 3rd time was Friday when I bent down to get Benjamin out of his xpen. He was in there so he could eat. He had food left over and both Cassie and Maggie were at my feet when the fight started. Maybe Cassie thought I was going to give Maggie that food. I dont know. I never ever give them his left over food.
Then last night when daughter came home, and reached down to pet Maggie first I guess.
My husband is fit to be tied over this... he says its because we have too many dogs. Maybe he is right... I dont know.????
I just hate that we are having this awful problem. :crying:

[Mel n Gooey]

First, you need to realize that everytime she gets into a fight, and "wins", it reinforces to her that fighting is the way to get what she wants. Prevention is key in this situation. Second, it sounds like while Maggie is getting the losing end of things, she's still engaging in rude (doggy rude) behaviors like jumping in front for petting (you may not see it that way, but I bet Cassie did), thinking about stealing Cassie's food (again, maybe not to you, but apparently to Cassie), etc. You need to start teaching Maggie what she can and cannot get away with around Cassie, or Cassie is going to teach her. I would start right now by teaching all the dogs to either down/stay or go to a designated area (small area rugs work well for this) and sit during exciting times (when eating, when people come in, when they're going outside, etc), so that YOU have control over the situation. In a group of dogs, these exciting times are the perfect set up for a fight to break out, so you need to try and keep some sort of control during them. Have all the dogs go to their spots (they should be seperated enough that they can't fight will in their spots) when someone comes in, then release them one or two at a time for attention. Same with food, toys, etc.

Second, realize that scraps are going to happen in multi-dog houses, and the best thing you can do is try to prevent as many as possible, and figure out a system for breaking them up quickly. We have 5 dogs, two large dogs (55-60 lbs), one small/medium (35 lbs or so) and two small ones (under 15 lbs). One of the large dogs is kept entirely seperate from the smaller ones, and only allowed around the other large one when closely supervised. The 3 smaller ones can be together, and the other large one can be together with them as well. The pecking order is as follows: Goo (big dog), Annie (dachsie), and Joey and Casey (cocker and Chi) trading back and forth at the bottom (Haley, the other large dog, is pretty much not important in this case, since she only interacts with one of the dogs). The three small dogs get in little scraps on occasion... usually one minor one (just a lot of noise) every couple weeks, a bigger one (actual contact) two or three times a year. I make it a point to head them off if I see a trouble spot... like all three going to greet a guest, I'll call one or two back, etc. If an actual fight erupts, there has only been one where they haven't stopped in their tracks upon my loud "HEY!!!", my yelling like that isn't something they're used to, so when I do, they know they've really screwed up, and everything stops there.

In our house, if I drop a scrap of food in the kitchen while the dogs are out milling around me, I'd better move fast and cover it up or get it off the ground, or the three little dogs will be fighting over top of it. The solution to this? They aren't allowed to hang by my feet while I prepare food... they go lay in a bed a few feet away, or sit on one of the rugs. That way if I drop a scrap, I have time to pick it up, and if it's something they can have, I dole it out amongst them or call them up to me for it. The same with food bowls, and other valuable items... if I want a following, I'll ask for it.

Generally, the rule is that if you can get a dog(s) to stop fighting just by screaming at them or by banging pots together, squirting them, whatever, they're not being very intense. In a real "trying to kill each other" fight, one or both dogs will be intent on hurting the other, and will have to be physically seperated. So that does seem to be in your favor. Of course, the more fights that occur, the more likely it is the the level of intensity will increase, so it's important to put a stop to it now.

While Cassie does need to learn that attacking the other dogs is unacceptable, it sounds like Maggie is also not respecting the boundaries Cassie has set, and until she does, they will continue to fight.

Again, that's just my experience with our dogs and a few other multi-dog households :)

[dutchman]

I'm just reviewing the board for the first time today so the latest updates are new to me:(. MArk gave great advice avoid the what if game it will tear you up. Also the chin bop at the slightest sign of a lip curle or growl.. The second time Frank drew blood on Dexter I too thought I mifht have to get rid of somone but things seem to be stable. I still have to keep a close eye on Frank but he is better than before. Perhaps I'm just more aware of how I interact with Dexter and have done a better job of avoiding a trigger situation.

Sending rays,

[Heide]

While I appreciate your frankness on behalf of Maggie, I do not believe that she is disrespecitng Cassie. What ever the reason is the fighting and blood drawing is NOT ACCEPTED here. I will not tolerate that kind of behavior. Not from Cassie Maggie or whoever. I value my dogs lively hood and will not stand by and see one killed by the other. Not for no reason. Disrespect or not.
As for jumping in front of Cassie for food does not happen. They are all fed in the order that I feed them in. There was never a situation where food was the factor, except the time I was gettin Benjamin out from his eating time.
I can see scraps happening but not to the extent of one being hurt physically. That is not a scrape. That is downright mean.
My dogs are not allowed in the kitchen while I am preparing dinner of what ever meal.
I am at my wits end and do not want anyone hurt weather it be Maggie or Cassie. While I would like to entertain the idea of a idealistic household, I am not living in a fantasy land here. This is a very serious issue where one of the dogs I also love dearly can be hurt.
This is very serious. I am not taking it lightly. It can lead to harm.
While I woudl love to keep them all I will not tolerate fighting to the extent of hurting one another.'
The fights are very intense, to the point of Maggie being physically hurt. I call that very intense. I will not accept that kind of behavior from none of them. Maggie seems to want to be friends with Cassie. No fighting. I mean she is wagging her tail and wantiing to play and NOT FIGHT.
I am in a sticky situation here.I do not want any of my dogs hurt. I will see what the week brings before being certain of what will take place.

[TessieMom]

Heide,
I know what you mean and I understand completely. I went through it with Lucy and the foster dog Gage. It is definitely not good for anyone to have serious blood shed and it is very bad for your blood pressure. You have to do what is best for your crew. Maggie was there first and Cassie is the new girl who has decided that she belongs at the top of the pack. Do what is best for you and for the kids.

[Mel n Gooey]

I do not believe that she is disrespecitng Cassie
Maybe not intentionally, but by her inadvertant behaviors (running up to the door to greet visitors before Cassie does, Standing nearby when Cassie think's SHE's supposed to be getting food, etc), she may be going against the "rules" Cassie has layed out. That doesn't mean that Cassie should be allowed to attack her every time she does something Cassie doesn't like, but that you may have to sort of meet Cassie halfway by your teaching Maggie some "boundaries' not to cross when it comes to Cassie. In the case of our older large dog, she uses a proper amount of aggression in correcting the dogs if they do something she doesn't like (most often a grunt or soft low growl, occasionally an outright roar, very rarely a warning snap), BUT if she did not understand how to properly correct them, I would have to teach them myself to respect her boundaries (like not climbing on her while she's asleep, not stealing her bully sticks, etc). Cassie's boundaries are a little too large, she wants too much from the other dogs, but at the same time, if she doesn't get SOMETHING out of the deal, she's going to be harder to convince to leave well enough alone.


What ever the reason is the fighting and blood drawing is NOT ACCEPTED here. I will not tolerate that kind of behavior. Not from Cassie Maggie or whoever. I value my dogs lively hood and will not stand by and see one killed by the other. Not for no reason. Disrespect or not.
I didn't mean my post to be taken as it being OK for Cassie to attack Maggie, nor that I find it acceptable for dogs to fight amongst each other, resulting in one or more being hurt. However, it seems that you are placing most of the blame on Cassie, when Maggie may be doing subtle things (again, maybe not even meaning to) that cause cassie to do this, and if you want Cassies behavior to stop, you have to get to the root of the problem, not just toss some dirt over it (so to speak) by correcting Cassie every time she shows aggression, as that very well may backfire in a big way eventually. Many times when a dog is corrected for aggression, they either UP the level and intensity of the aggression, to get it out before they are corrected, OR they will behave themselves because they "have to", but at the first opportunity that they don't "have to" the enforcer walks out of the room, turns their back, whatever, will aggress more furiously than ever before, because they've been building up stress, anxiety, etc over the situation, until it all boils over.


As for jumping in front of Cassie for food does not happen.
That was only an example of the types of things I was referring to, there are others, like greeting guests first, coming between them and someone else, passing by while they have resources (chewies, bones, food, etc), among others. All these are situations where obedience (like a good down or sit/stay) is a BIG help.


I can see scraps happening but not to the extent of one being hurt physically. That is not a scrape. That is downright mean.
It appears that we have a different view of the term "scrap", IMO a scrap is when two or more dogs go at it, with or without the intention of hurting each other, but are not totally serious about it, and can be broken up without physical intervention. I also don't necessarily consider two relatively small wounds to be indicative of a dog tryign to seriously harm the other (most small dogs' teeth are sharp, and it doesn't take much to break skin, especially on a breed with relatively thin skin, like Dachsies), however, it can be a sign of things to come, so should be taken seriously.

I can understand your fears, and agree that it may be best to send Cassie back to the rescuer(?) in your situation, but just wanted to clarify my earlier post, as I think I wasn't very clear on some things. I'm sorry you have to make this decision at all, and wish you the best of luck in whatever you decide.

[minicooper]

Heide, I am so sorry you have to go through this.
I have no advice as I have never been in the situation, but I just wanted to say that you are one of the BEST Dachsie Moms, and nothing you did caused this problem.
You, your family and the Furkids are in my thoughts, and I am sending rayz:rayz: :rayz: :rayz: to help you make the best decision for all concerned.

[Heide]

I am sure needing lots of that.
I spent the whole day with Cassie yesterday. She was outfront with us while we put up our Christmas decorations. She absolutley loved her time being out with us.
This way I could get things done and not worry so bad.
When it was time to feed them, she got her's first. Then went on down the line.
Then when we gave a treat she was first.
Explained to hubby and daughter about doing things with her first.
We all want this to work out. NONE of us want to send her to another home. David and I both talked about that yesterday. WE love her to peices. We want this too work out. I am working with her to understand we are the Super Alphas. On one of the sites I read it said to make her work for her things. Like if she gets a treat she must first do a command. We did sit. Rewarded her and gave her praise.
Then we worked on stay. Rewarded her and praised her.
She is a smart girl, I just want to try everything I can before we have to do anything extreme.
As far as running up to be petted, they all do that. Even little Benjamin does. They all love the attention. I dont think any of them are trying to steal anything from the other. They have always done that and it has never been a problem until recently. Each one of them try to push there way into the pets. What doxie dont?
When ever there is blood drawn I think that is serious. Yes I do believe that attacking was very serious. Her wounds are not small little things. The gash on her head is very large. I do not take that lightly. Yes the fight was to intentionally cause harm. Or she would of not broke through skin. There is a way of going about putting someone in their place without causing harm. SO there fore I believe it was to hurt.
I am in NO WAY trying to throw dirt over this situation. I want more than anything to fix the problem. That is why I posted this here so that our knowlageable members can try and help us.
We have very experinced folks here that are trying to help. I appreicate that more anything also.

On another note....please continue those rayz for Benjamin.. I should be getting the test results back from the pathologist, sometime this week. We started his supplement of immunostim'r yesterday. Its suppose to decrease the size of cysts.

[lotsadox]

I think you're on the right track with Cassie, Heide. Keep in mind it may take some time. Behaviour patterns can be deeply rooted. I pray for a good out come where Cassie can stay in your home.

I hadn't thought of the working for treats. They taught us in obedience class to use that for dogs with behaviour problems. I know you're in a really tough situation. Hang in there. You're a good dachsie mom. It's so hard for any of us to judge what's going on because we aren't there. I know you're going to do the best you can.

[juliette]

Heidi - first off, you are an amazing dachsie mom. Remember that and let that be your mantra to yourself.

Secondly - there are loads of theories out there on Alpha status, the role of dominance and submission in pack order, etc. You're in a difficult situation and if it reminds me of the struggles on anyone of our board members, I would say Dutchman's challenges with the pack order and fighting behaviour of his pack probably comes the closest.

I don't have a huge amount of advice to add that is over and above the amazing information included here. I know that there is great literature available on packs and the dominant/submissive behaviours which are common. You have to remember, Dachsies are a bitch dominant breed - which means that the worst of the scraps are going to be amongst the girls (Rena experiences this from what I remember and therefore the rule of only male fosters).

I truly, truly hope that giving Cassie up doesn't become the only option. Please look for some of the great research that is available to see how you can help facilitate both of your puppers getting along together better. The entire pack order seems to be shifting and all the dogs will require changes to their behaviour to deal with the change.

Our love and thoughts are with you.

Juliette

[lotsadox]

Juliette's right. The only real problems I've had over the years have been with 2 females. The boys tend to growl a little and work it out that way. Every time we bring a new dog into the house everyone has to adjust a little. This could just be a larger adjustment. Keep them as separated and safe as you can and go from there.

[TessieMom]

Giving her special time may help a lot. I do think that obedience training for each dog (separately) will help too... that gives each their special mama time! Crating after a spat seemed to help Gage realize that it was not acceptable... it took about 3 weeks before he could be in the same room with Lucy, but he did eventually get back in the general population.

Gigatons of rays for Benjamin!

[dutchman]

Here is a link for the association the dog behaviorist trainer I first worked with is a member of http://www.apdt.com/ . If you follow the links to locating a trainer there are two individuals listed in Mississippi. Since I don't know the state and don't have a map or atlas at hand I don't know if either of the contacs are in your area or not. Here is the home page for the trainer I have used http://www.k9shrink.com/index.html I haven't watched her tapes but have the book. The only thing is it's been some time since I read it and then I only skimmed specific parts since I had an even better source of advice at hand (her persoanlly),

As with many things in life knowing the correct things to do and then following through can be two differnt things. Many people fail at training because they don't like some piece of advice and stop going to a trainer rather than trying to work through an issue. I don't think that would be you if you found a good trainer especially with the current issues in your home.

I've never been in a home with two female dogs but have always heard that is the combination that is the most prone to major alpha issues. Loren has posted the title of a small book on pack order that is only about $19 if you can find a copy. I have a copy at home and have read about half of it and it seems to have a lot of good advice. you might want to PM her if she doesn't see this and post the title. I can also try to look for the book tonight and post the title.

It's really hard to know what to even suggest without being able to observe the dogs and even then not being a professional I feel unsure of what advice to give.

You will come home from your vet know more about wound care. I bet the vet shaves the areas to keep the hair out of the wounds. My vet had me using an iodine scrub solution several times a day. The biggest wound Dexter ever received shocked me when I first saw it. IT wa a big gapping hole that must have been some where between the size of a dime and a nicke. That one had me calling the vet at 11:00 at night. He said with the lack of any major bleeding just wash it out and bring him in in the morning. My vet also knows I handle things well and have a decent basic knowledge of first aid. By morning the edges of that wound had pulled together quite a bit and it was no wehre near as shocking to look at. The wound that took the longest to heal was a deep fang mark on a hip. Dexter has a scar there with no hair. Puncture wounds actually tend to heal slower and are more prone to infection tha the gaping rips. The wound that was the big gaping hole would be hard to find on Dexter. Even when I look I can't really be sure I am in the right spot. Oh yes I almost forgot if you find one puncture look closely you will almost always find a matching wound. That last bit of advice was from my vet. IF they bite had enough with a fang to cause a puncture wound the odds are the matching (upper/lower) fank will have also penetrated the skin.

Frank and Dexter had two blood draw fights. The first one was perhaps a year ago. The socond one this summer when Dexter was experiencing his sore back so perhaps as somone here on the board suggested having a ill alpha might have been causing an incresed lack of confidence in pack positions. The other time that would have most likely been a blood draw if my hand hadn't intercepted Frank was perhaps a mont after the second. That was when I was thinking someone might have to go. I know just how serious Frank's attack was since my thumb ended up in his mouth taking the bite he intended on giving Dexter. I have a scar just above the middle of the second joint on the thumb and a white spot on the nail that has almost grown out. His one fang nailed me right above the cutical so the nail gave some protection from the bite. As soon as frank realized he had me in his mouth he let loose and immedatelly retreated. As soon as I could kennel Frank and try to give some initial comfort to Dexter who was paniced I had to go run cold water over my thumb then get some ice to kill the pain.

Good luck, sending rays for a solution.

[Frzframe]

please know you are doing the very best for all involved.

I can only guess as to what your going through. Mitzi and Dudley have only really gotten into it once over a chewie thing. Mitzi was in the wrong and tried to take Dudleys. It sounded terrible but nothing like you have gone through. Mitzi was kenneled up with her chew bone while Dudley was left out in the family room to chew one his. Mitzi knew she was in trouble (tried those eyes on me but I held strong) and after 5 mins in the kennel then I gave her back "her" bone. Dudley doesn't go through his as fast so Mitzi had to wait Dudley out until he didn't want his anymore. Pure torment for the old girl. :fierce: But since then she isn't so graby - we'll see how long that last. My guess not longis it wont be long enough!!

I hope everything works itself out for your families best interest. If you decide Cassie has to go to keep peace I'm sure no one here will think badly of you because you did all you could to keep everyone safe and happy in your home which is the most important thing.

~Shonda, Mitzi and Dudley

[Mel n Gooey]

It sounds like you're on the right track with her, working her through obedience and making her earn rewards.


As far as running up to be petted, they all do that. Even little Benjamin does. They all love the attention. I dont think any of them are trying to steal anything from the other. They have always done that and it has never been a problem until recently. Each one of them try to push there way into the pets. What doxie dont?

Yes, but you have to understand that some dogs cannot handle being in situations like that, so you have to find ways to work around them. In your situation, if Cassie is truly one of those dogs, it's best to either keep her out of those situations (crating her before people come in, before you pick up food bowls, not letting her in small areas with you and another dog, etc) OR to take back control over the situation yourself, so that you can dictate what they can do, and it's no longer Cassie's place to correct the other dogs. This is usually best done by making ALL the dogs follow the same routine in troublesome situations, like a down/stay when someone comes in until you release them. I'm not telling you not to let them greet visitors, or not to hang out with you, but teach them that they do it on your terms (staying back until you tell them it's their turn), or not at all.


When ever there is blood drawn I think that is serious. Yes I do believe that attacking was very serious. Her wounds are not small little things. The gash on her head is very large. I do not take that lightly. Yes the fight was to intentionally cause harm. Or she would of not broke through skin. There is a way of going about putting someone in their place without causing harm. SO there fore I believe it was to hurt.

I didn't mean that the wounds themselves were not serious, nor that the fight was "ok" to happen, but if you look at things from a wider perspective, it might be easier to understand what I'm saying. When a dog bites, they will bite in different ways depending on him serious they are about causing harm. A slash or cut wound generally indicates teeth only grazing or shallowly entering the skin, which translates into a relatively soft bite. A dog who is truly intending to seriously harm what it is attacking will use a full mouth, deep bite, usually leaving at least 3, often 4 deep punture wounds. A dog that leaves one or two deep or moderately deep punctures is starting to get more serious, but still not intending serious harm. The wounds you described, two punctures and a cut, indicate that there was a lot of teeth flying, but NOT a lot of hard contact. That's not to say that it's not serious, BUT that despite how bad the injuries look, they indicate that Cassie was not as serious as you think she was.

Again, this is just what I've taken from what I've read here, and I may be entirely wrong in my thinking, but it's something to consider at least.

If you're set on keeping her, but she ends up not being able to be around Maggie in some situation, do you have the facilities to seperate her when you're not right there to watch them and make sure they stay out of trouble? If so, that very well may be an option for you. For a small breed dog like a Dachsie, you could probably use just a babygate or a 20" or so piece of plywood to keep them seperate when you weren't able to supervise. Let her in with the other dogs (minus Maggie if it comes to that point) in shifts, or if there are two people at home, one of you take her, one take Maggie, and just keep them away from each other while you hang out in the same room watchign TV or whatever. While seperating and rotating dogs may seem like a pain, it's not bad once you get used to it, and it's pretty easy if you only have two dogs that don't get along, because that's less rotations, so more time each dog gets to spend with you. Just an idea...

BTW, good luck with Benjamin!

[Heide]

of days now.
I am trying to work the Alpha strategy.
Maggie goes to the vet tomorrow. She had some kind of emergency.
I have been looking closer and she has about 8 wounds on her. The one on her neck is long and has some blood and looks like puss comeing out of it.
I have iodine swabs here and have been cleaning her with those. I will feel much better after she gets to the Dr.
I am just trying to work on our problem and see if we can get it solved somehow.
But I know if its going to continue our only other option is to let Cassie go to another loving home.


Still no word on Benjamins results.

[lotsadox]

That's a good start, Heide. Do check out the link that Tom gave you. It helped me when I was having problems with Miller. Good luck and keep us posted on this and on Benjamin.

[dutchman]

Here is the information on the pack order book that I believe Loren has mentioned before.

LEADER OF THE PACK
Nancy Baer and Steve Duno
Publisher Quill A Harper Resources Book
ISBN 0-06-101019-7
USA $11.00 / Canada $16.00

I picked up a copy at the local Barnes and Noble. I've read about a third of the book and skimmed some other parts. It appears to contain a lot of good information.

[lotsadox]

That's an excellent book. Someday I'll finish reading it. I pick it up and read a chapter every once in a while. It has some great information and good exercises to do with the dogs.

You can also get it on Amazon.com.

[juliette]

Please give Maggie and Cassie some extra loving for us! It's a very scary time for your pack, but we all pray that the girls will be able to sort it out with your supporting the pack order and that peace can be maintained.

We're here for you!

[Heide]

behavorist at placerspca
His name is Matt Green.
We have been talking about what all has been going on with Cassie and Maggie recently.
After several emails back and forth and answering his questions this is his last reply....which shocked me.
Heide,
It sounds like there are multiple components conected to the biting, probably stemming from a dominant personality. so far it soundls like Cassie has attacked another dog over control of resources, both food and attention. In all likelihood, she also becomes aggressive when overstimulated. From the information I have received, it sounds like Cassie is NOT an alpha dog, but more like a beta dog. Basically, she is insecure about her place in the pack and tends to bully the other dogs. Ofcourse, I am making a lot of assumptions based on a small amount of information, without ever seing the dogs.

What concerns me most is the LEVEl of aggression. Most dogs develop Acquired Bite Inhibition while growing up. That means they learn from (littermates, mom, etc,) to LIMIT the power with willingness to which they bite . They usually do NOT break the skin. Cassie has demonstrated both a willingness to bite AND a lack of control, resulting in damage to the other dog.

Although there is a chance that Cassie may become acclimated to her new environment and quit taking things out on the other dog, it is MORE likely that fights will continue, at least for a while. I think talking to the rescue place you acquired her from and ask them to re-home Cassie may be the best solution for you. Otherwise, you risk continued injury to your other dog. I hope this information helps and if I may be of further service, please feel free to email me or call me.
Matt Green Placer spca.org
What do you all think of his reply?
I am stunned. I know that both are still not getting along, but no fights as of now.
I am afraid of another altercation with them, and it being more serious now.

[TessieMom]

I don't know what to say about that one. We have a behaviorist that CTDR uses in Austin, Lee Mannix, and he was excellent. You might e-mail him. He is at http://www.leemannix.com
or e-mail is lmccb@lmccb.com

[Mark]

I had planned on a response to this anyway. ;)

His first assumption that Cassie may be an insecure Beta may be true. It is difficult to tell without more events.

A lack of control, as he puts it . . . hmmmm . . . not sure that an alpha/beta struggle demands from the dog . . . control. The reason for the confrontation is to win leadership. Without control there would have been more damage.

The most apalling thing I see is that he states he is assuming things with very little info, then arbitrarily states that rehoming may be the best solution. Yikes . . . that's like being diagnosed by your doctor by phone and having a prescription sent to you.

I really wish there were a behaviorist in your area to help. I assume you've tried internet and Yellow Pages resources to find one.

Good luck, Heide . . . we so hope this is fixable.

[Kim H.]

that Mr. Green gets a lot of questions from people with much less experience raising dachshunds than you have, Heide... he may have been taking a conservative approach. I bet a lot of people he talks to get a rescue dog not realizing what they're getting into (abuse from humans, dog fights, etc.). You have already integrated rescues into your home with success.

His comments about "acquired bite inhibition" are what I see in MY little dogs, who are littermates & have grown up in a happy environment. Whereas Tom, who has rescue dogs, has had blood-drawing issues (no acquired bite inhibition there!), too, and his dogs have learned to coexist... so the question is whether Cassie and Maggie could do that.

Maybe the behaviorist Rena mentioned would have more ideas (?)

That's just a thought. Sorry you are having to deal with this difficult situation - it is obvious you want to do the best thing for both girls.
:rayz: :rayz: :rayz: !!!!

[TessieMom]

When I am more awake tomorrow, I will try to post more details about what Lee Mannix told me to do with our problem children. I have had 5 dogs that were aggressive to other dogs or people and all 5 are now in forever homes. I do believe that it can be corrected with time and patience and a lot of tough love. She cannot get by with anything and needs to develop a clear idea of her position in the pack. Obedience really will help her with this, but you are going to have to do "time outs" and control every aspect of their interaction from feeding to sleeping to the greeting and the hunt. (walking). I will dig out all Fritzie's paperwork when I have a spare moment.

[Heide]

I value your input.
I would like to email your behavorist that you mentioned Rena
I want to get more opinions on this situation.

[lotsadox]

I think Rena's right. I think with time and patience and a lot of work things can work out. There have been changes in your household recently, that could have upset her so that she no longer knows her place in the pack. But gaining control is essential. I was reading some more in Leader of the Pack yesterday and it's amazing the things that dogs see as establishing the order that we would not see that way. It also repeatedly states that if a dog feels that it is the leader it is the leader's right to "correct" the pack by bitiing them. That's the way they keep order. I've also noticed that since doing obedience training and working the leadership roles from the book. Cash, who used to be the "pee-meister" and mark everything in the house has stopped. It would be disrespectful to the leader to mark her things. Also, no one will now sit on my end of the couch or in lay in my part of the bed! I didn't work with them on that, it's a sign or respect. They just do it!

Cassie may very well need to be reminded of her place in the pack. I really encourage you to get this book or one of the Jan Fennell books on dog behaviour. A lot of the things they talk about are surprising.

[TessieMom]

I can try to scan and send you all the instructions. I read Jan Fennell's book and it really did help me see some things I needed to change.
1) Feeding -- you and the other hoopeople eat first, before the pack -- even if it is only a cookie or a cracker
2) Sleeping -- she should not be on the bed or couch or chair ... I know your bed is high, but watch the couch, etc.
3) Walking... obedience will help with healing and control so that she respects you and the others. She should not go through the door first.
4) Greeting: you need to be in control anytime there is a meeting of people or animals. She should not rush and jump ...

Any act of aggression results in an immediate time out in a crate for 10 minutes to start, up to 20 minutes. Other dogs should be interacting and playing outside the crate while she is crated so that she knows what she is missing by behaving badly. You have to be the pack leader! You cannot allow her to be in charge of discipline!

[Heide]

things are going really good now. Keeping my fingers crossed.
I am spending time with Cassie and having her work for her treats and feeding her first and petting her first.
It seems to be working.
Maybe with bringing the baby little devil home made her feel lost in the pack. I never thought of that.
But I have been trying to reassure her of her position.
There is still no love lost between her and Maggie. It breaks my heart to hear Maggie cry, cause I think she is wanting to play with Cassie but is Afraid too. So she wimpers. I hope this will pass and they can get to be friends.
I really do not want to loose Cassie.
We have some issues that we have to work through.
Now when the obedience classes start in January who should I enroll first??? Cassie or Maggie?
Im confused with this part.

[juliette]

Heidi - good news for now. Glad to see that some peace is restored for the time being. I'm sure you will keep an eye on them. I know Maggie's crying breaks your heart, but they WILL settle into pack order in time.

IMHO (and I have no official opinion on this one), I would take Cassie to obedience first. I believe it will give her more confidence, reinforce her bond with you and make her easier to work with in challenging situations.

::hugs::
Take care.

[TessieMom]

The aggressor needs to go first. Later work with the attackee. The more I think about this, Cassie was special (she was the most recent addition to your pack) until Benjamin showed up. Because of Benjamin's challenges, he suddenly became the special one who got a lot of attention and she was displaced. All perfectly logical in a dog's mind. She got your attention which was what she wanted.