back problems due to jumping

[laneynlabs]

Hi there Doxie lovers! I dont' yet own a little guy to call my own, but have fallen head over heels in love with a little red man named Popper and plan to get a pup by him in a couple years. At the moment, my hubby and I are owned and trained by two labs, and we have plans to get another one shortly before we get our doxie puppy. We are hevily involved with obedeince and have recently gotten hooked into agility. I've read a little about doxie spinal problems and also that they shouldn't jump. I'm wondering what your take is on that? Will my little guy be okay to jump in agility and obedience? We are aware that their weight needs to be kept down and they aren't allowed to do stairs. Any further advice or thoughts are greatly appreciated! Thanks in advance!!
Kel

[Susan'sFreddie98]

Personally, I would stay away from Agility and jumping. IMHO you're asking for trouble with a Dachshund, EVEN if they have good backs. Do you ever see a Dachshund perform in Agility competition? I never have. I would leave the Track/Field for Dachsies. Even though it is impossible to totally prevent occasional jumping, I wouldn't encourage it.

~Susan~

[Mark]

Hi Kel,

Welcome to the board! http://dachsie.org/ubb/smilies/bounce.gif

Usually when we have discussions about jumping, we're referring to jumping up & down from furniture or beds, which is a straight up or down jump . . . how high are the jumps for agility, which of course is only relative to . . . are you thinking Mini, Tweenie or Standard size?

Susan is right that we all have been "trained" http://dachsie.org/ubb/smilies/biggrin.gif to have aversions to our Dachsie's jumping. I also have never seen a Dachshund doing agility and although I enjoy watching it . . . am not an avid fan that never misses an event. So if Dachsies are out there doing it . . . I could just be missing it. I suspect that quite a bit of the activity would strengthen their backs rather than hurt . . . depending, of course, on their "line". The IDD problems usually exist in the Genes and is simply aggrevated by jumping, stairs, etc. Our 2 Mini's have Puppy mill in their line and have both had back problems.

One of our members, Mary (aka; Wireweiners) breeds dachshunds and does field trials, obedience . . . and agility (I could be wrong on the agility, but feel like she may know about it & Dachsies) . . . so maybe she or someone else here can help with a first hand opinion.

I'm with Susan though . . . peronally, I'm staying away from any jumping activities for our kids and I wouldn't want (or need) to risk any Dachsie doing it or stairs on purpose.

Mark

[Timber]

Dachshunds are rare in agility, but they have done it. I've seen pics of Dachshunds running a course and saw one running the course when I was watching a dog show on TV. For Dachshunds, the height of the jump is only 6 or 8 inches. Unless your future dachsie is very small as an adult, there is no reason why you shouldn't do agilty. However, for the sake of their backs, I wouldn't run them in agilty too often, maybe 2 or 3 times a month.

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Tiffany
Future SplashMountain Kennels

[Timber]

Here are some pics of agilty Dachshunds.


<IMG SRC="http://www.dachshund-dca.org/obedience%20pix/agilitybarjump.gif" border=0>


<IMG SRC="http://www.dachshund-dca.org/obedience%20pix/tire%20jump.gif" border=0>

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Tiffany
Future SplashMountain Kennels

[Susan'sFreddie98]

Wow! Looks like Dachshunds do Agility afterall! Hey Tiffany, where did ya get those pics? I have to admit, those are cute pics with the wieners flying in the air.http://dachsie.org/ubb/smilies/biggrin.gif

Maybe the Standards could handle it better, I don't know (BTW, Mary has BEAUTIFUL Dachshunds, her Guy is my current wallpaper<IMG SRC="http://dachsie.org/ubb/cwmsmilies/cwm26.gif" border=0>). I've heard that the Mini's are more prone to back problems? True? I guess the Tweenies are too?

~Susan~

[Timber]

I found the pics on the Dachshund Club of America (http://www.dachshund-dca.org) website. Get to the first page, then find the link near the top of the page where it says Dachshund Pictures (or something like that) and click the link Agility. There are 2 other pictures too.

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Tiffany
Timberland

[dutchman]

I would say if the dog enjoys the activities then let them do agility. IF this is a major concern for you then I would suggest you do research and find a good breeder who is noted for producing dogs with few back problems. I have heard of enough dachshunds who are not allowed to go up and down stairs or get on or off furniture who develop back problems that I firmly beleive the single biggest factor is genetic. I also know of many dachshunds allowed to do stairs and jump up and down off from moderate heights who never develop any back problems.

If I could ever get Frank to settle down and do both a goo sit stay for the start and a good down (next to impossible right now) for the table I would consider trying some agility with him. My vet has some basic agility equipment outside their office and frank loves the jumps, has no problem with the teeter, can't see the point to the weave poles and hates the A-Frame.

Remember these guys were bread as hunters and I suspect most back problems came as a result of breeding for show standards.

Good luck,

Tom and the boys (Frank and Tanner)

[pkmiddler]

Sorry I could not let the Show statment go.Breeding a good and correct Dachshund is how you get NO BACK PROBLEMS.The Dachshund is LONG yes but the correct RIBBING and KEEL is needed to hold up the back if the rib is SHORT and the LOIN is LONG then back problems are always there.Run your hand down the spine of your dog feel for any lumps or bumps.Mesure the rib and loin is the loin longer than the rib cage? LONG RIB SHORT LOIN that is what you want to see.The keel should not stop just before or right after the front leg it should be like the keel of a boat LOOONG.The longer the better a well bred dog that has these things for generations is the dog that I SHOW!!!! and run in the Field and Put underground and lays on my couch 6 of them right now.

<FONT COLOR="#00FFFF" SIZE="1" FACE="Verdana, Arial">This message has been edited by pkmiddler on March 25, 2001 at 09:37 PM</font>

[dutchman]

I'm sorry if I( offended anyone with the comment about breeding for show I know there are many good breeders out there. My point is that for dachshunds as with many other breeds there have been changes in the appearance that is desired for the show ring. If you look at photo's of hunting or even show dachshunds from the turn of the century they have undergone quite a dramatic change in desired body appearance. I suspect the original dachshund breed for a hard field life had fewer back problems than our current crop of dachshunds.

It's not a trend that is unique to dachshunds. The German Shepard is a major point. Breeding for the American show standards has lead to an ever increasing hip problem in that breed. That is a major reason many police departments are importing their working dogs from Europe. Our local police and sheriff departments won't even consider an American breed dog as a candidate for their training program. I do have a problem with people breeding for a certain look and ignoring related genetic problems. I know there are responsible breeders out there working for the good of the breeds but there are also a number of irresponsible breeders out there as well. While I don't attend a lot of dog shows I have been to a few and have overhead a breeder talking about how they could not resist using a certain dog as a sire since he had such a good show record. This was despite the fact that he had been detected with early onset IDD.

Tom

[Timber]

Here are the rest:


<IMG SRC="http://www.dachshund-dca.org/obedience%20pix/agility%20tunnel.gif" border=0>


<IMG SRC="http://www.dachshund-dca.org/obedience%20pix/agilityboard%20jump.gif" border=0>

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Tiffany
Timberland

<FONT COLOR="#00FFFF" SIZE="1" FACE="Verdana, Arial">This message has been edited by Timber on March 26, 2001 at 11:18 AM</font>

[pkmiddler]

Sorry,didn't mean to go off on you, But most of the people I call breeders would not breed a dog with back problems.In fact I have a friend who spayed here last 2 bitches since there was a bcak problem in a line she had bred to.The people you talked about were not breeders they were people who like to WIN no matter what it takes.Some so called "breeders" like to say I have bred this many Champions.Well they do not own those dogs they go away after they finish the Ch. and maybe they do well or maybe they die from health problems or back but then that means they can sell 1 more dog.This is why some of talk about KNOWING what is in your pedigree before you breed the dog you LOVE I do not mean learn what colors are ther I mean find as many dogs in that pedigree put hands on them find out if any died what they died from.Search the entire pedigree find littermates to your dog see if there are problems in the ribbing and keel length and the rear teeth it all makes a good dog and a good breeding.<IMG SRC="http://dachsie.org/ubb/cwmsmilies/cwm36.gif" border=0>

[Jmom]

Boy do I agree with you guys on the breeding thing...it drives me nuts when breeders will use an unsound dog in their breeding program just to get a straighter topline, or more correct ear or whatever...there are wonderful breeders out there who try hard to improve the breed but so many who don't.

Re: agility in doxies, IMHO...PLEASE DON'T!!!! Doxies aren't built for that kind of stress. My Jessie and I showed in conformation, obedience, tracking, field trials, earth dog, etc...she was the #1 hound group in obedience, won many high in trials, had 44 OTCH points...I'm not trying to brag here, but the point is even though she only jumped 8", and I was neurotic about the rest of her life...no stairs, ramps, etc. she still had to have major back surgery at age 4 and had problems the rest of her life.

I loved that girl more than life itself and even though the obedience may not have contributed to her back problems, I'll never know that for sure and I will forever feel so much guilt.

I have a lot of friends who do agility, and several doxie friends who do it with their doxies. Scares me to death...I must say that every single doxie freind I have doing agility right now, has not been through a back problem with their dogs yet. One friend was doing agility with her wirehaired girl, she came down off the A Frame and blew a disc and she had to put her down. She was devastated and has not and will not have another dachshund now, she had doxies for years and years before this.

It's just not worth the risk in my opinion. There are so many other things doxies can do. Especially if you have labs, I'll bet they are wonderful in agility.

I have not tried to post a picture before but I'll try to post one here of my dear Jessie doing the broad jump in obedience. She was well bred, had beautiful conformation, other than the obedience, I went way overboard to be sure she had no back problems, diet, daily moderate walks for strength, swimming, acupuncture, massages, no jumping at all on furniture, in the car, etc...and yet she had back problems.

I lost her 3 1/2 years ago and am still overwhelmed with grief from her loss (I did not lose her to the back problem, but to cancer at age 10). I havent' been able to get another dog since losing her and I will always wonder how much I contributed to her back problems.
<IMG SRC="http://www2.localaccess.com/murry/images/Jessjmp2.jpg" border=0>

[pkmiddler]

Do not blame yourself cancer has nothing to do with the back.I feel our dogs are going younger I have people call all the time and say they just lost a 17 year old Doxie and want one again.But I have noticed all breeds are having dogs die younger so far are kids are making it with no real problems and we have 2 that are or will be 11.

[laneynlabs]

Okay, so I'm still unsure as to what I'll do, but I'll definitely talk to the breeders and other doxie people. Maybe see if I can find a good doxie vet and see what they say. Yes, we are open to doing other things (hunting and earthdog), but agility and obed are major parts of our lives, especially obedience. The coming off the A-Frame thing does scare me now that I've pictured it in my brain. We are getting a mini, btw. Probably would do better as far as jumping goes with a bigger one, but hey, we're in LOVE!!! Thanks for the feedback. Bums me out, but I've got probably 2 years to mull it over! Who knows, I may hate agility by them!! LOL! Thanks again~
Kelli

[Timber]

For more information on Dachshund Disk Disease (http://www.dachshund-dca.org/diskbook.html) , click the link. It has some diagrams, too.

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Tiffany
Timberland

[Carol A. Smith]

I agree with what has been said about being careful with your selection of dog (breeding past history, etc). Having said that, if you want to do agility, do it. Just be sure you have a dog who does not come from a line that is prone to back problems. Keep your dog fit, healthy, and of good weight, and then don't worry... I know of dachsies that do agility, and do fine. I know of dachsies that have gone down doing nothing more strenuous than walking across the floor. To not do something you and the dog love because of fear of the unknown is not rational to me.. enjoy your dog, and let him enjoy himself. A good, fit, well exercised dog is certainly preferable to a couch potato dog. I just sold one of my pups to a couple that do agility, and have a 12 yr old dachsie who STILL does it. They recently lost a 16+ year old dachsie to old age, and he had always done agility.

Have fun with your dog, and let the chips fall where they may, don't deny yourself fun because of a "what if"

[Cindi]

My 3 yr old CH neutered male LOVES agility and would just shrivel up if he couldn't do it. We have class once a week, when we are not drowning in rain, and practice at home frquently. I lower the jumps to crossed bar height when just practicing. As to how the a-frame scares people....I don't see it. My dogs do not 'fly' off the a-frame, they walk off. I have had dachshunds for over 20 years. I have had one dog with back problems...that was at 4 and before agility. He woke up one morning wobbly.
We have a breed, as are the shih tzu, lhasa, cockers (which amazes me) and others, that can be predisposed to this problem. All breeds have something....you pick the breed you love and prepare as best you can. Healthy dog, active dog, no jumping straight down (which is where the impact is so hard on the spine and could cause problems where there might not have been) from heights and then enjoy your dog and let him enjoy life to the fullest. Running in the backyard, jumping off the porch....for us bending over to pick up a dime....anything can cause a problem in a dog that is predisposed. If they aren't, they won't. I do not see the purpose of not enjoying life to the fullest while you can...not advocating test the limits to the point of danger but enjoy. Life is short enough. Just My Opinion, of course.